beekay414 Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 Just now, incognito_man said: I mean, you shouldn't be. I've consistently been a proponent of all avenues of education. The data speak for themselves: investing in education is a boon for society. It's not a "grift" simply because your lifestyle choice is different than millions of others. Calling 4yr degrees a grift is as nasty as insulting 2yr degrees or apprenticeships as "something less". It is just factually incorrect, lazy, and serves no useful purpose. I didn't call a 4 year degree a grift lol I called gen eds a grift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 Just now, beekay414 said: I'm literally arguing that you should only pay for your career path and I said as much. I'm there to learn how to become a journalist or camera man or whatever, I don't need to go into even more debt to learn about Genghis Khan or whatever. That's all I'm saying. Offer it up if it's important but don't put the burden of cost on someone trying to just get started in their life. There are ways to do that without getting a liberal arts degree if you are so dedicated to do so. So I don't get the complaint? Millions of students benefit from these courses every year. It's intentional for good reason. It's not a "burden" to everyone. You may view it as a personal burden, millions more do not. And the facts will indicate that, at scale, it absolutely is not a burden. Again, this just keep coming back to your preferred lifestyle and career path not being compatible with a liberal arts degree. That's fine - but it's nonsense to try to categorize the entirety of the liberal arts programs as a "burden". It's simply untrue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 Just now, incognito_man said: There are ways to do that without getting a liberal arts degree if you are so dedicated to do so. So I don't get the complaint? Millions of students benefit from these courses every year. It's intentional for good reason. It's not a "burden" to everyone. You may view it as a personal burden, millions more do not. And the facts will indicate that, at scale, it absolutely is not a burden. Again, this just keep coming back to your preferred lifestyle and career path not being compatible with a liberal arts degree. That's fine - but it's nonsense to try to categorize the entirety of the liberal arts programs as a "burden". It's simply untrue. It's 100% nonsensical to charge thousands upon thousands of dollars as a requirement for these kids to focus on a career path that has nothing to do with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, beekay414 said: It's 100% nonsensical to charge thousands upon thousands of dollars as a requirement for these kids to focus on a career path that has nothing to do with them. You're wrong, sorry bro. You need to consider some additional levels here. There are likely hundreds of thousands of pages dedicated to supporting the importantance of general education courses on their merit alone. Additionally, the institutions that offer higher level degrees depend on these courses as a backbone to function. Even more, many students do not have declared majors whilst taking gen ed courses and are guided by these into finding a meaningful career path while gaining transferable education credits. Again, if you find yourself on the opposite side of a point that has literal millenia of the world's greatest thinkers supporting liberal arts education and your firm stance is based solely on your personal experience and view that it's a personal waste for you, I would recommend considering viewpoints other than your own. Edited December 3, 2021 by incognito_man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 No one is arguing the system is perfect, but you are firmly stating that gen eds are a "burden" collectively. And there's just nothing that supports that stance whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 Just now, incognito_man said: No one is arguing the system is perfect, but you are firmly stating that gen eds are a "burden" collectively. And there's just nothing that supports that stance whatsoever. Unnecessary financial burden on the students, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 1 minute ago, beekay414 said: Unnecessary financial burden on the students, yes. you need to support why it is collectively "unnecessary". Simply pointing out that you didn't think it was "necessary" for you is an n=1 case and not convincing. Convince me/us why gen eds are a burden on society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, incognito_man said: you need to support why it is collectively "unnecessary". Simply pointing out that you didn't think it was "necessary" for you is an n=1 case and not convincing. Convince me/us why gen eds are a burden on society. Again, you keep claiming that I'm calling them solely a burden as if I don't think education on them is important. My issue, this entire time, has solely been with the cost required. I came to college to learn to be *insert whatever here* and I'll pay what I need to pay to make it happen. I did not come to college to take ******* art history and pay a grand to do so. The use of "burden" has always been financially. Yet you keep slanting it as if that's not what I'm saying. If they are that important, and necessary, then provide them, sure. Just don't put that on the backs of broke *** college kids. Edited December 3, 2021 by beekay414 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, incognito_man said: No one is arguing the system is perfect, but you are firmly stating that gen eds are a "burden" collectively. And there's just nothing that supports that stance whatsoever. 2 trillion dollars nationally in student debt. There's never anything wrong with garnering more education, but 2 years of school was about 30k for me, I could have bettered myself far more efficiently with that money than sitting in Psych 101. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, Packerraymond said: 2 trillion dollars nationally in student debt. There's never anything wrong with garnering more education, but 2 years of school was about 30k for me, I could have bettered myself far more efficiently with that money than sitting in Psych 101. Demonstrate an unbreakable link across the following: Gen Eds @ non-profit 4yr universities -> $2 trillion debt -> Societal "burden" Edited December 3, 2021 by incognito_man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, beekay414 said: Again, you keep claiming that I'm calling them solely a burden as if I don't think education on them is important. My issue, this entire time, has solely been with the cost required. I came to college to learn to be *insert whatever here* and I'll pay what I need to pay to make it happen. I did not come to college to take ******* art history and pay a grand to do so. The use of "burden" has always been financially. Yet you keep slanting it as if that's not what I'm saying. If they are that important, and necessary, then provide them, sure. Just don't put that on the backs of broke *** college kids. nobody is forcing anyone to take gen eds. There are many other options available outside of liberal arts degrees. I can't wrap my head around your complaint. Millions of students choose and benefit from gen eds and 4 yr programs. Liberal arts have been a staple in developed nations for thousands of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, incognito_man said: nobody is forcing anyone to take gen eds. There are many other options available outside of liberal arts degrees. I can't wrap my head around your complaint. Millions of students choose and benefit from gen eds and 4 yr programs. Liberal arts have been a staple in developed nations for thousands of years. okay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatJerkDave Posted December 3, 2021 Author Share Posted December 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, incognito_man said: nobody is forcing anyone to take gen eds. There are many other options available outside of liberal arts degrees. I can't wrap my head around your complaint. Millions of students choose and benefit from gen eds and 4 yr programs. Liberal arts have been a staple in developed nations for thousands of years. How did you not have to have a fine arts credit, or a history course, or a writing course? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 1 minute ago, ThatJerkDave said: How did you not have to have a fine arts credit, or a history course, or a writing course? how did you not bold the sentence after the one you bolded lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 25 minutes ago, incognito_man said: Disagree completely. The objection isn't those classes being available. It's those classes being required for a major at the cost they're offered. An 8 semester engineering student will easily take a full semester of courses outside of their major. Probably close to 2 semesters. That's around $30,000. We can argue all day about the ancillary benefits of the World Geography 102, Yoga 101, and Chinese 102 classes I had to take to walk with my degree, but it wasn't related to my degree and the only reason I had to do so was to get my course hours up in line with some bull**** ABET board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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