2020 Baker thread

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

30 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

 

Lamar Jackaon, and Patrick mahomes fail in that scenario. 

The veteran, talented rosters and experienced, quality coaches they got paired with seemed to be overlooked quite a bit here.

Situation dictates a lot.

[Onizuka]

6 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

I think Baker flourishes on many NFL teams. Especially if there is continuity in the coaching staff. Baker does what Baker does extremely well. However 1st year coaches are going to make sure Baker does what they want. We need to get to a point where we use Baker how he should be used. I doubt anything has changed since the Georgia game. Let him play his game and he tears it up. Slow it down and the timing is bad and the offense looks in disarray.

He isn't Tom Brady. He needs to get it and rip it. That doesn't mean throwing all game but the tempo needs to be quick and the routes need to be quick. See it and hit it.

This is how I feel. Baker's rookie season, he didn't really have much pressure and it seemed for the most part, once Hue got let go, the coaches did everything they could to play to his strengths. I'd really like to see how this offense would be without OBJ and what seems to be the feeling of trying to force feed him the ball. The plan would work if we got the OBJ that was on the Giants where he was catching wobbly balls from Eli and/or making plays that gave him the label of "elite generational talent".

I forgot who mentioned it but I agree that Baker strives when he is constantly looking to throw it to multiple receivers instead of trying to force it to OBJ. I'm not sure what's up with OBJ (injuries, lack of drive to continue to be a star?) but he isn't the same player we were hoping to get when Dorsey got him here.

 

[MWil23]

Orlovsky's video and those clips were spot on. Baker doesn't trust what he's seeing and he's looking at guys who are open. Last year we gave him a pass for scheme/system and a horrific OL, both of which there was some merit to.

That said, we saw more of the skittish Baker, more of the double clutch Baker, more of the off platform/sloppy footwork Baker, despite multiple open guys and scheme that has outlet receivers for him.

If he doesn't correct these three major things (footwork, trusting his eyes and letting it rip, and knowing where his outlets are), then he won't have a prayer of succeeding in the NFL, not to mention reading a defense and knowing what coverages he's seeing/going to see, which, per my point in the other thread, with a single high safety on that 3rd down INT, you know is going to be either man/Cover 3, and given the CB technique off of #1 (outside WR) and no one covering down #2 (slot), the shoot/slant is where that needs to go all day. 

[buno67]

21 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

That said, we saw more of the skittish Baker, more of the double clutch Baker, more of the off platform/sloppy footwork Baker, despite multiple open guys and scheme that has outlet receivers for him.

Yeah we did see that but it will take time to break those habits. Truly not having a preseason hurt the browns because they could have had joint practices and 3 preseason games to get him vs a live rush to help smooth those things out. Same issue I have with cutting Siebert so quickly. First game seeing a true live rush, I don’t care for stuff in practice. Would have liked to see how he responded. Prolly would have cut bait after wk2 or wk3. 
 

if by week4 there is truly no improvement with Baker. Then he just might be damaged goods. The rest of the season will need to be a full evaluation of him and a A new plan for a potential franchise QB will need to be formulated

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

14 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Yeah we did see that but it will take time to break those habits. Truly not having a preseason hurt the browns because they could have had joint practices and 3 preseason games to get him vs a live rush to help smooth those things out.
 

yeah there’s a lot of the same things we saw last year, but for many of the same reasons such as new coach, new scheme, etc.. The difference for this year is there’s an ENTIRELY new offensive staff and they had no preseason.  Expecting crisp out of the gate is..... optimistic.

14 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Same issue I have with cutting Siebert so quickly. First game seeing a true live rush, I don’t care for stuff in practice. Would have liked to see how he responded. Prolly would have cut bait after wk2 or wk3. 

I’m obviously just speculating, but based on the fact they put Parkey on the practice squad I’m guessing he’s looked shaky all summer too.
 

Even with the challenges of 2020, we’re returning the same holder, LS, and ST coach.  There should be little acclimation needed for him.

14 minutes ago, buno67 said:

if by week4 there is truly no improvement with Baker. Then he just might be damaged goods. The rest of the season will need to be a full evaluation of him and a A new plan for a potential franchise QB will need to be formulated

Yeah I think you have to give him the season and see how it goes.  
 

Unless he absolutely falls flat, I’d love to see what he looks like next year.  It would be great to have someone in the same system for a couple or 3 years for once in my life.

[MWil23]

33 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Yeah we did see that but it will take time to break those habits. Truly not having a preseason hurt the browns because they could have had joint practices and 3 preseason games to get him vs a live rush to help smooth those things out.

Like I said:

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

If he doesn't correct these three major things (footwork, trusting his eyes and letting it rip, and knowing where his outlets are), then he won't have a prayer of succeeding in the NFL, not to mention reading a defense and knowing what coverages he's seeing/going to see, which, per my point in the other thread, with a single high safety on that 3rd down INT, you know is going to be either man/Cover 3, and given the CB technique off of #1 (outside WR) and no one covering down #2 (slot), the shoot/slant is where that needs to go all day. 

Here's what I mean:

He has 15 more games to figure it out and prove that he can do these things, or at least show promise that he can going forward, which realistically means the back half of the 2020 season with drastic improvement going into 2021. If I'm the coach, I'm giving him 16 games. That's almost three full seasons as the #1 overall pick with a lot invested in him, with a guy who showed that promise as a rookie in this league. He has the arm talent and showed the accuracy as a rookie, which has dramatically dropped off, because his footwork and pocket presence have regressed. That guy who confidently stood into the pocket and threw strikes on the money isn't there right now, and maybe never will be again.

33 minutes ago, buno67 said:

 

Same issue I have with cutting Siebert so quickly. First game seeing a true live rush, I don’t care for stuff in practice. Would have liked to see how he responded. Prolly would have cut bait after wk2 or wk3. 

We never should have drafted him to begin with, but given that he was put on notice all summer shows me this isn't a "Week 1" thing, but has been a "several months" thing.

33 minutes ago, buno67 said:

if by week4 there is truly no improvement with Baker. Then he just might be damaged goods. The rest of the season will need to be a full evaluation of him and a A new plan for a potential franchise QB will need to be formulated

Maybe, but we need to see a full 2020 season.

[buno67]

32 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

We never should have drafted him to begin with, but given that he was put on notice all summer shows me this isn't a "Week 1" thing, but has been a "several months" thing.

Not true. You can practice things all you want but you also need live action to truly see where you stand and what adjustments need to be made. Fight or flight, what is your natural reaction going to be? Week1 was live bullets and a legit rush after you. You can have live sessions in practice but you know that you won’t get hit. I think by week 4 you should be able to see things changing and developing. 

just like Darnold said last year. About seeing Ghost. Baker is in that same boat. Doesn’t matter who the browns drafted baker or donald they both would have been hurt but what has happened. Truly biggest issue was not firing Hue after 0-16. Should have paired a new GM with a New HC with a New QB but what a surprise, Jimmy screwed the pooch on that one. 

37 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Maybe, but we need to see a full 2020 season.

Idk I think by week4, if we don’t see those subtle adjustments changes to the game, I Don’t see the big things being fixed. If you can’t fix the little things, the big things won’t either. 

[MWil23]

11 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Not true. You can practice things all you want but you also need live action to truly see where you stand and what adjustments need to be made. Fight or flight, what is your natural reaction going to be? Week1 was live bullets and a legit rush after you. You can have live sessions in practice but you know that you won’t get hit. I think by week 4 you should be able to see things changing and developing. 

I was literally talking about our kicker, which is why I separated that paragraph from the entire context of my Baker analysis.

11 minutes ago, buno67 said:

just like Darnold said last year. About seeing Ghost. Baker is in that same boat. Doesn’t matter who the browns drafted baker or donald they both would have been hurt but what has happened. Truly biggest issue was not firing Hue after 0-16. Should have paired a new GM with a New HC with a New QB but what a surprise, Jimmy screwed the pooch on that one. 

Idk I think by week4, if we don’t see those subtle adjustments changes to the game, I Don’t see the big things being fixed. If you can’t fix the little things, the big things won’t either. 

See the above

[Kiwibrown]

Baker looked so good in 2018, that jets game he just let the ball rip. 

He was good for most of 2018, so really it is only 1 year we have to undo, 2019. We should hopefully be able to reform good habits quickly. 

I hope we come out with a run, then a simple play action where he can rip to Jarvis or Hooper. 

 

[Kiwibrown]

Ultimately, Bkaer can have Brees like career if he wants it and if we provide him with some stability. 

If baker and OBJ have another stinker then I would move on from OBJ for a 2nd and change. 

Obj needs a coach that he cant stand up to, it's not Kevin at this point, its bill b or shanny. Obj should thrive in this offense in the play action. We need to go back to two te sets run the ball and let OBJ and Juice get open.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, Kiwibrown said:

Baker looked so good in 2018, that jets game he just let the ball rip. 

He was good for most of 2018, so really it is only 1 year we have to undo, 2019. We should hopefully be able to reform good habits quickly. 

I hope we come out with a run, then a simple play action where he can rip to Jarvis or Hooper. 

 

I’d like to see some trickery, some creativity.

First drive reverse pass Jarvis to OBJ, get them both involved.  Wing T.  Wildcat. (idgaf, just something unexpected).  Move the pocket.
 

A couple screens/slants early to get everyone in a rhythm.

[Kiwibrown]

23 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I’d like to see some trickery, some creativity.

First drive reverse pass Jarvis to OBJ, get them both involved.  Wing T.  Wildcat. (idgaf, just something unexpected).  Move the pocket.
 

A couple screens/slants early to get everyone in a rhythm.

Obj is meant to be awesome at slants, slant him all day. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

16 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

Obj is meant to be awesome at slants, slant him all day. 

Easy, quick “see it, throw it” read, just what they both need.

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I’d like to see some trickery, some creativity.

First drive reverse pass Jarvis to OBJ, get them both involved.  Wing T.  Wildcat. (idgaf, just something unexpected).  Move the pocket.
 

A couple screens/slants early to get everyone in a rhythm.

Couldn't agree more with this. In 2018 when we were creative, and allowed players input, they played harder than any Browns team in decades. Defenses were a step behind because of it so we could do a lot with much less effort, kinda like how the Ravens offense works, they have an advantage before they even run a play.

I expected that to continue and that is why I supported the Kitchens hiring. It stopped in 2019 though aside from maybe 2 or 3 plays. Much harder to coach (and play) when defenses know what to expect. We look at it as having no identity I'm sure opposing defenses look at it like just the blandest style possible last year and so far this year. Don't gotta be cute (see fake punt) but you do have to be creative unless you are super good at something and can do it when the defense expects it (Tom Brady kinda stuff).

Edited September 16, 2020 by Thomas5737

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Couldn't agree more with this. In 2018 when we were creative, and allowed players input, they played harder than any Browns team in decades. Defenses were a step behind because of it so we could do a lot with much less effort, kinda like how the Ravens offense works, they have an advantage before they even run a play.

I expected that to continue and that is why I supported the Kitchens hiring. It stopped in 2019 though aside from maybe 2 or 3 plays. Much harder to coach (and play) when defenses know what to expect. We look at it as having no identity I'm sure opposing defenses look at it like just the blandest style possible last year and so far this year. Don't gotta be cute (see fake punt) but you do have to be creative unless you are super good at something and can do it when the defense expects it (Tom Brady kinda stuff).

Yeah that 2018 offense was the most well coordinated offense we’ve seen.  Unpredictable, fun, creative, fast paced, aggressive.

I’d love for someone to bring something like that back.