Week two Aints... Good, bad, ugly

[NYRaider]

32 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

One of my concerns about that Clemson team was just how stacked they were. Is Ferrell an NFL level backup? Probably. But you get 3, 4 guys on a college D-line that are worthy of being in the NFL at all, some are going to look like absolute studs by default. Ferrell had the testing to make it look like he was THAT guy. But when put on a line against 5 guys who can start in the NFL, he's been exposed. 

I've said the same about QBs- I don't want the "stud" from Bama who has 4 WRs, 3 RBs, and a 10-deep O-line where every one of them will be playing on Sundays. Give me that trooper who elevated his team, even if they only go 8-4. I'll be adding it my evaluation of all positions going forward- were they possibly elevated by proxy?  I think Ferrell was.

That's a great point, Ferrell was blessed to play with two other high first round picks on the interior DL during his time at Clemson which definitely helped him a lot. One of the things that bothered me about the Ferrell pick, and likely would've had a big impact on his draft stock, is that he didn't do any of the drills at the combine or Clemson's pro day. He never looked like a great athlete on film in college and I think he would've tested average at best and definitely wouldn't have been our pick at #4. 

That's another great point. When you look at the top QB's in the league very few of them went to powerhouse programs or were on extremely stacked teams: Mahomes (Texas Tech), Wilson (NC State/Wisconsin), Jackson (Louisville), Brees (Purdue), Rodgers (Cal), Wentz (NDSU), Roethlisberger (Miami OH), Prescott (Miss St), Goff (Cal). 

[Darbsk]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Crosby is drawing double teams left and right too. Teams aren't even scheming for Ferrell. 

His biggest impact in the game was a penalty. Literally the only time I heard his name, it was him drawing a flag. Frankly, I'd rather give someone else a shot. He's just not an impact player. 

One of my concerns about that Clemson team was just how stacked they were. Is Ferrell an NFL level backup? Probably. But you get 3, 4 guys on a college D-line that are worthy of being in the NFL at all, some are going to look like absolute studs by default. Ferrell had the testing to make it look like he was THAT guy. But when put on a line against 5 guys who can start in the NFL, he's been exposed. 

I've said the same about QBs- I don't want the "stud" from Bama who has 4 WRs, 3 RBs, and a 10-deep O-line where every one of them will be playing on Sundays. Give me that trooper who elevated his team, even if they only go 8-4. I'll be adding it my evaluation of all positions going forward- were they possibly elevated by proxy?  I think Ferrell was.

 

I always think about this point when it comes to Crimson Tide LBs and DLine, are they a product of elute players round them or are they the players that are elevating others. Very hard sometimes to differentiate.

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, NYRaider said:

That's a great point, Ferrell was blessed to play with two other high first round picks on the interior DL during his time at Clemson which definitely helped him a lot. One of the things that bothered me about the Ferrell pick, and likely would've had a big impact on his draft stock, is that he didn't do any of the drills at the combine or Clemson's pro day. He never looked like a great athlete on film in college and I think he would've tested average at best and definitely wouldn't have been our pick at #4. 

I have been saying this since we drafted him.  Just because he was unable to perform any drills that could measure his athletic ability on a level playing field against his peers would have made me not take him at #4.  I actually like both DTs on that line more than him but we needed a DE more but not a base end.  This will sound a lot like an Al Davis quote but I could tell he was not a twitchy athlete just by watching him walk.

[RaidersAreOne]

 

[RaidersAreOne]

 

[agarcia34]

Jacobs such a great leader for such a young player. Love how he told the rookie guard time to be a man. 
 

I would trade Mack every time over and over for Jacobs. 

[SilverNBlackFan]

27 minutes ago, agarcia34 said:

 I would trade Mack every time over and over for Jacobs. 

As much as I love JJ, no . Mack was a once in a decade type player at a premium position. Jacobs, while elite already, probably won't be the same player in 3-4 years especially if we keep feeding him as much as we do now.

Arnette needs to become an above average player for that deal to look even to me. 

[agarcia34]

I wouldn’t call Mack a once in a generation type player. He’s elite without a doubt. With Gruden I would call RB a elite position for his offense and without a RB like Jacobs. This offense is nothing. Just my two cents 

[drfrey13]

34 minutes ago, agarcia34 said:

I wouldn’t call Mack a once in a generation type player. He’s elite without a doubt. With Gruden I would call RB a elite position for his offense and without a RB like Jacobs. This offense is nothing. Just my two cents 

True but the top 10 RBs in the league could do what we need.  Mack was DPOY and all-pro.  Not often a defensive player can win games for you and I would say 2016 was just as much him if not more than Carr.

[NYRaider]

39 minutes ago, agarcia34 said:

I wouldn’t call Mack a once in a generation type player. He’s elite without a doubt. With Gruden I would call RB a elite position for his offense and without a RB like Jacobs. This offense is nothing. Just my two cents 

I think Josh Jacobs makes a bigger impact for our offense than Mack did for our defense tbh. 

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

True but the top 10 RBs in the league could do what we need.  Mack was DPOY and all-pro.  Not often a defensive player can win games for you and I would say 2016 was just as much him if not more than Carr.

Meh. In 2016 we ranked dead last in sacks despite having Mack on the edge. We also ranked 26th in yards allowed and 20th in points allowed. Carr led us to 7 4th quarter comebacks and was a front runner to be MVP before he got hurt. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

6 hours ago, NYRaider said:

That's a great point, Ferrell was blessed to play with two other high first round picks on the interior DL during his time at Clemson which definitely helped him a lot. One of the things that bothered me about the Ferrell pick, and likely would've had a big impact on his draft stock, is that he didn't do any of the drills at the combine or Clemson's pro day. He never looked like a great athlete on film in college and I think he would've tested average at best and definitely wouldn't have been our pick at #4. 

That's another great point. When you look at the top QB's in the league very few of them went to powerhouse programs or were on extremely stacked teams: Mahomes (Texas Tech), Wilson (NC State/Wisconsin), Jackson (Louisville), Brees (Purdue), Rodgers (Cal), Wentz (NDSU), Roethlisberger (Miami OH), Prescott (Miss St), Goff (Cal). 

I get your point but in no way, shape or form are Goff and Wentz top QB's in the league.

[NYRaider]

9 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I get your point but in no way, shape or form are Goff and Wentz top QB's in the league.

They're both definitely in the top half of the league as far as starters are concerned. Between 2017-2020 Goff is 35-14 (71%) and over the last three seasons he has passed for 13,200 yards and 88 TDs. And he's on pace for another very productive season and likely a playoff berth. Wentz has had a poor start to the season but they're also missing 3 starting offensive linemen and two of their top WR. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by NYRaider

[ronjon1990]

9 hours ago, NYRaider said:

That's another great point. When you look at the top QB's in the league very few of them went to powerhouse programs or were on extremely stacked teams: Mahomes (Texas Tech), Wilson (NC State/Wisconsin), Jackson (Louisville), Brees (Purdue), Rodgers (Cal), Wentz (NDSU), Roethlisberger (Miami OH), Prescott (Miss St), Goff (Cal). 

Even if Goff and Wentz aren't "top" QBs in the league as @Frankie2Gunz says, they've both been successful, or, at least not flops. 

I'd add that even the second tier guys that jump out usually aren't from top tier programs: Jimmy G, Cousins, Carr, Teddy B, Foles, Minshew, Ryan, Taylor, Tannehill, Rivers, Allen. 

Now, they've had varying levels of success from adequate starters to HOF potential, but all of them are proven starters at some level. Between your list and mine, that's a majority of the NFL's starting QBs. With the exception of age (Rivers/Brees) none are apparent options to be replaced in the next draft, and only Taylor and Foles aren't currently starting (though both probably could). 

The QBs likely to be replaced soon for reasons aside from age or just haven't lived up to billing: Haskins (Ohio St), Newton (Auburn, Heisman, had his time as a solid QB though), Stafford* (Georgia), Trubisky (NC), Mayfield (Oklahoma), Darnold (USC). Ohio St, Auburn, Georgia, USC, and Oklahoma were powerhouse teams stacked with talent.

Idk, I've just noticed a trend that sees "the best QB" in a class rarely pan out anymore. Leinart, Young, Bradford, Jawalrus, Winston, Mariota...the list can get fairly extensive. It's certainly not an exact science, but when you look at, say, Crosby (probably the only player from Ohio U last year worthy of being drafted) and Ferrell (one of many on Clemson)...you get the point. 

Good players can certainly come from top programs, but I'm well past giving them sole credit for their production when they are surrounded by other talent. I think it's a byproduct of the "super class" in recruitment these days. Most of the top talent gets isolated among a select few teams and then play teams with many fewer NFL caliber players. 

I already have bigger expectations for Edwards as a total package than I do for Ruggs, for example. Ruggs is talented, but he was also put into a fantastic situation at Alabama. I think Edwards might actually be the better receiver now that the talent level they're playing with and against is more equal than Alabama and South Carolina. A team full of NFL backup-only level talent would probably wipe the floor with Clemson or Alabama every single day. Parity, I suppose.

I suppose the big point for me is that there just isn't a "can't miss" prospect anymore. It's a unicorn. And I would like to avoid powerhouse program players if we're addressing an absolute need. Jacobs is sort of our lone exception, but heck, he wasn't even Alabama's top RB. Though I'd be lying if I said I didn't flip out in a bad way when we first took him. I saw shades of Eddie Lacy and Trent Richardson and wanted Alexander Mattison in like the 3rd. I can't say Mattison is better, obviously, but he's certainly not been bad for Minnesota and conformed to what I've been saying. 

Anyways, that's probably enough for this thread. Now you know my scouting style. The 2021 Draft is going to drive me nuts with so many schools/players not playing yet lol.

Edited September 24, 2020 by ronjon1990

[G]

4 hours ago, agarcia34 said:

Jacobs such a great leader for such a young player. Love how he told the rookie guard time to be a man. 
 

I would trade Mack every time over and over for Jacobs. 

Still could of drafted Jacobs and kept Mack. RB's weren't highly valued that year but he's been worth the #4 we used on Ferrell no doubt. Team MVP

Mack was able to create havoc as the only player a coach even mentioned. The TEAM sucked on D but Mack and Carr we're on point so it didn't matter.