Giant Tidbits: Random team discussion & rumors

[Go_Giants]

8 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

You're only focusing on the positive cases. The Bears traded up for Mitch Trubisky that same draft that Mahomes went in 8 picks later. Joe Burrow was a can't miss prospect and #1 overall pick in 2020, yet Justin Herbert, who went 5 picks later and was laughed at as a selection, is probably the best young QB in football. It is a total crapshoot. It is almost never the case in a given draft that the best QB is the one picked first, the 2nd best is the one picked 2nd, etc.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you are advocating for drafting position players only and NOT taking a QB this upcoming year, and going so far as to say don't take a QB at all until the team around him is good. I think that is a massive mistake for many reasons. Why is it better to build the team that way? What happens when you miss on a few positional players along the way? How do you actually get close to competing for a Super Bowl this way?

Sure lets take a look at your examples. The bears missed on Mitch, what did they do, in what was considered a strong QB class they traded up to draft Justin Fields, who they are happy with.

You do know Bengals are 8-6 and are in 1st place in a tough division? Joe Burrow is not the Bengals problems, he can play for me team any day.

If Justin Herbert was laughed as a selection he would not have been drafted in the first round. As much as I hate Gettleman I honestly believe had he not drafted Jones he would have drafted Herbert a year later.

I am saying taking a QB that is not top tier or near that level and putting him on a bad team is a bad combination. The results of that combo is the next Sam Dornald or the next Daniel Jones. Look at what Ryan Tannehill is doing for Titans and what Matt Stafford is doing for the Rams.  

Why are you wanting so badly to follow the Jets example of how to run a franchise, when we should be following the Chiefs, Rams and Titan examples?

[minutemancl]

6 minutes ago, Go_Giants said:

I am saying taking a QB that is not top tier or near that level and putting him on a bad team is a bad combination. 

Oh ok. Well then that is easy. We should only draft good QBs then and not bad ones. I wonder why the Jets didn't try that.

[Go_Giants]

1 minute ago, minutemancl said:

Oh ok. Well then that is easy. We should only draft good QBs then and not bad ones. I wonder why the Jets didn't try that.

No, it is not easy, but also not the impossible crapshoot you want it to be. I am just saying apply some logic, in a strong QB draft class do what you can to get the best QB possible. However if your teams sucks, unless he is elite talent or near elite talent most likely your QB is going to struggle. The Jets don't apply some logic because they are the Jets. 

Look at good QB's on bad teams. Is Deshaun Watson not a top 10 QB talent, he has not been able to do anything with Houston. Look at what Stafford was with the Lions and now what he is with the Rams. 

Lets go with your examples,  Dallas already had a team that was good enough to win when they drafted Dak. The same thing with the Patriots when they got Tom Brady and what they are doing with Matt Jones now. 

If WFT mortgages the future and gets Deshaun Watson or Russell Wilson they are a playoff team and it is even money between them and Dallas on who would be best team in this division.  Give away our two first round picks to get  Deshaun Watson or Russel Wilson and we will  still finish in last place with either of them. 

If you fix the team, there is an outside chance we can be the Titans for Daniel Jones. If you don't fix the team, chances are we going to be the next Jets or the next Lions for what ever future QB we draft.

[minutemancl]

1 minute ago, Go_Giants said:

No, it is not easy, but also not the impossible crapshoot you want it to be. I am just saying apply some logic, in a strong QB draft class do what you can to get the best QB possible.

Do you think there are teams that are not 'applying logic'? Who makes the determination on when it is a strong QB draft class? Have you watched any of the QBs coming out this year and made the determination on them, individually, yourself?

I'm done arguing this with you. You're going in circles and saying things like "just draft a good QB from a strong class" like that is something a team can just do, and you're not addressing any other point I'm making.

[Go_Giants]

2 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

m done arguing this with you. You're going in circles and saying things like "just draft a good QB from a strong class" like that is something a team can just do, and you're not addressing any other point I'm making

I have addressed every point you made, I have even used your own examples to make my points. Not once have you answered my question of why you want to follow the Jets.

However I can agree with you, that this conversation is going no where.

[Shockwave]

5 minutes ago, Go_Giants said:

If WFT mortgages the future and gets Deshaun Watson or Russell Wilson they are a playoff team and it is even money between them and Dallas on who would be best team in this division.  Give away our two first round picks to get  Deshaun Watson or Russel Wilson and we will  still finish in last place with either of them. 

If you fix the team, there is an outside chance we can be the Titans for Daniel Jones. If you don't fix the team, chances are we going to be the next Jets or the next Lions for what ever future QB we draft.

Highly speculative. Adding an established elite veteran like Wilson would almost certainly instantly improve this team. QB is by far the most impactful and influential position. Elite QB's play can make up for and even mask bad oline play. Wilson has a putrid line in front of him this year and he's still rocking a 7.7 YPA, 65% completion percentage. Numbers Jones didn't even come close too in his best season.

That said I certainly do not want to give up 3 #1's for Wilson. I'd give up a 1 and a player or a 1 this year and 1 next year though in a heartbeat.

[Go_Giants]

Just now, Shockwave said:

Highly speculative. Adding an established elite veteran like Wilson would almost certainly instantly improve this team. QB is by far the most impactful and influential position. Elite QB's play can make up for and even mask bad oline play. Wilson has a putrid line in front of him this year and he's still rocking a 7.7 YPA, 65% completion percentage. Numbers Jones didn't even come close too in his best season.

That said I certainly do not want to give up 3 #1's for Wilson. I'd give up a 1 and a player or a 1 this year and 1 next year though in a heartbeat.

To me Russell is struggling some and his bad offensive line is catching up to him. We bring Russel here, I think our bad line will catch up to him.  Now if you brought Aaron Rodgers here, that guy can play beyond our bad offensive line. I think with him we would be a playoff contender, but if you put Rodgers on WFT I think they are a Superbowl contender. 

I do agree if we gave up just one of our #1 draft picks and something else like one our one two 3rd round picks. I would not be against it. We would still have enough draft picks to fix this O-line for Russel. However I would much rather fix this team build up some draft capitol for the 2023 draft, see if DJ can be the man in 2022 and if not go all in for the future franchise QB in 2023 with a fixed team to back him up and enough draft capitol to bring him here.

[minutemancl]

1 minute ago, Go_Giants said:

I have addressed every point you made, I have even used your own examples to make my points. Not once have you answered my question of why you want to follow the Jets.

However I can agree with you, that this conversation is going no where.

You are not capable of splitting the process from the result. I thought I made it clear, but I guess I didn't, that the Chiefs, Jets, Seahawks, Cowboys- it is all the same process. The difference is the result. The Chiefs liked the traits of Mahomes and got him while they still had Alex Smith because, while Alex Smith was good, he wasn't the next level QB they needed to win a Super Bowl. The Jets continued to take QBs every year because they weren't sold on any that they had. They failed, but not for lack of trying. The Seahawks signed Matt Flynn to an enormous deal to be their starting QB, but liked the traits of Russell Wilson enough to take him early and it paid off. The Cowboys had Tony Romo, but liked the traits enough of Dak to take him in the 4th. The Giants had Eli, but wanted to plan for the future and drafted Bomar, Webb, and a handful of other guys based on traits they liked. None worked out, but the process was fine. The Eagles continuously and for years have drafted QBs high that they liked and a lot of times, they were even able to flip those guys for draft picks just based off auditions where they looked somewhat decent. The Eagles are in year 1 of a rebuild, are better than us, and have more draft capital than us specifically because they did this. 

This is a good process. It is good to do this. The Giants should be doing this, especially given the QB situation they are in. I personally like the traits that Corrall, Ridder, and Pickett display. I would advocate for taking them this draft, even if it means using a top-10 pick. You want to wait 5 years until the rest of the roster is good before even attempting to get a QB, and only then if it is a strong class.

[Go_Giants]

31 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

This is a good process. It is good to do this. The Giants should be doing this, especially given the QB situation they are in. I personally like the traits that Corrall, Ridder, and Pickett display. I would advocate for taking them this draft, even if it means using a top-10 pick. 

Look at the teams you listed, Chiefs, Cowboys, Seahawks then the Jets and the Giants.  Now the teams that were ready to win are the Chiefs, Cowboys and Seahawks. The teams that are not ready to win are the Jets and Giants.

Eli Manning a soon to be Hall of Fame Qb could not succeed with this offensive line when it went into decline. Tell me what possible chance could, Bomar, Webb and Daniel Jones have with it? 

The process does make  sense, but this team as it is currently is not giving the process a chance to work.  As much as I hate Gettleman did I complain when he drafted DJ. I am pretty sure I didn't if he believed DJ had the traits to be a franchise QB then Gettleman had my support. If the next GM believe he is drafting the next Herbert he has my support. However it needs to be Herbert level talent. Herbert had a bad offensive line as well, but his talent like Rodgers is able to over come a bad line. 

31 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

You want to wait 5 years until the rest of the roster is good before even attempting to get a QB, and only then if it is a strong class.

Five years for the roster to get good?! We got 7 draft picks in the first 4 rounds it is not going to take 5 years for the roster to be good again. As long anyone other Gettleman is making those picks we will be just fine roster wise.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Go_Giants

[Kip Smithers]

3 hours ago, minutemancl said:

You're also seeing teams like the Colts and WFT, who have really good rosters surrounding their QBs but bad QBs, be stuck in that ~.500 limbo with almost 0 chance of getting out unless they mortgage their future to acquire a QB they believe in and actually hit on them. Meanwhile, all the really good players they drafted are having their rookie contracts wasted and they won't be able to retain them all.

Drafting 'around' a QB when you are picking as high as we are is a mistake. For both the long and short term, hitting on a QB is a must. It is the quickest way to transform your franchise and helps you get past that .500 hump you may encounter in the future. Not taking a shot and hoping to just somehow get one later is incredibly foolish. Do you think the Jaguars should have not taken Trevor Lawrence because the rest of their roster is garbage? No, that's stupid. They needed to take Trevor Lawrence but also hit on their other picks and roster construction decisions.

I'm not saying you necessarily have to take one at pick 5/6, but within the first 2/3 rounds you absolutely need to take one whose traits you like. And you need to do that every year until you have one. I like Corrall, Ridder, and Pickett.

What? Colts and WFT have good rosters, we don’t lol. They’re in far better places to succeed and for runs than we are. Those two teams can put an average QB and an undrafted one behind their rosters respectively and be competitive with the former being a dark horse AFC contender. 
 

We tried drafting this QB first and 3 years later we still have no idea what he is. Not really because of his talent but because of the dysfunction around him. 
 

Regarding your question about the Jags, of course they should’ve taken Trevor Lawrence. Except we all know there isn’t a Trevor Lawrence level prospect in this draft or even a great one. And like somebody said, Lions and Texans are two teams that need a QB yet no QB is slated to be their pick right now. So why on Earth should that be the case for us? We are asking to move away from a QB we have now and trying to get another one with not having the pieces in place to accurately assess what the QB can be. Very very very few QBs can supersede the talent around them. We can’t keep looking for that one, so your best bet is to do the best you can the QB is in a decent position to succeed or to where we can actually assess him

[Shockwave]

2 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

What? Colts and WFT have good rosters, we don’t lol. They’re in far better places to succeed and for runs than we are. Those two teams can put an average QB and an undrafted one behind their rosters respectively and be competitive with the former being a dark horse AFC contender. 
 

We tried drafting this QB first and 3 years later we still have no idea what he is. Not really because of his talent but because of the dysfunction around him. 
 

Regarding your question about the Jags, of course they should’ve taken Trevor Lawrence. Except we all know there isn’t a Trevor Lawrence level prospect in this draft or even a great one. And like somebody said, Lions and Texans are two teams that need a QB yet no QB is slated to be their pick right now. So why on Earth should that be the case for us? We are asking to move away from a QB we have now and trying to get another one with not having the pieces in place to accurately assess what the QB can be. Very very very few QBs can supersede the talent around them. We can’t keep looking for that one, so your best bet is to do the best you can the QB is in a decent position to succeed or to where we can actually assess him

I mean it's very early but I've seen quite a few mocks with Detroit taking Pickett and Houston taking Corrall. Obviously alot can change between now... the offseason/free agency and then the draft but I don't think it's far fetched to suspect one of them goes early in this draft. Heck I even saw one mock with us trading up to the #2 pick and taking Corrall.

[minutemancl]

8 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

We tried drafting this QB first and 3 years later we still have no idea what he is. Not really because of his talent but because of the dysfunction around him. 

We may not have a full evaluation on DJ, but we absolutely have enough to make the call on what he is. He is not an elite level QB that can elevate a team. He's got durability issues, sporadic decision making issues, and oddly enough, issues with accuracy from a clean pocket. He's an average QB who can't play a full season. Great backup material, good spot starter, but that's it. More playing time is not going to tell us differently. The easiest way to elevate an entire team is upgrading at QB, which we are in a position to do.

11 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Regarding your question about the Jags, of course they should’ve taken Trevor Lawrence. Except we all know there isn’t a Trevor Lawrence level prospect in this draft or even a great one. And like somebody said, Lions and Texans are two teams that need a QB yet no QB is slated to be their pick right now. So why on Earth should that be the case for us? We are asking to move away from a QB we have now and trying to get another one with not having the pieces in place to accurately assess what the QB can be. Very very very few QBs can supersede the talent around them. We can’t keep looking for that one, so your best bet is to do the best you can the QB is in a decent position to succeed or to where we can actually assess him

Lions and Texans both should take QBs and I think they'd be dumb not to.

[Shockwave]

26 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

We may not have a full evaluation on DJ, but we absolutely have enough to make the call on what he is. He is not an elite level QB that can elevate a team. He's got durability issues, sporadic decision making issues, and oddly enough, issues with accuracy from a clean pocket. He's an average QB who can't play a full season. Great backup material, good spot starter, but that's it. More playing time is not going to tell us differently. The easiest way to elevate an entire team is upgrading at QB, which we are in a position to do.

Lions and Texans both should take QBs and I think they'd be dumb not to.

You know I was going to attempt to counter this with Eli's slow start to his career and how if we had given up on him after his 3rd season how much of a mistake that would have been. But then I went and reviewed his early stats and jeez..even for being a below average QB those Eli early years were still way more productive and efficient then DJ's. Early Eli was a turnover machine but he at least could put up yards and scores. 2019 DJ just seems like an anomaly now.

What I do worry about and will absolutely rue is... DJ gets cut. Signs with someone like the Saints or Broncos and then absolutely lights up the league and we are stuck here starting over in QB hell. That's why a big part of me wants to just give him a prove it season.

Edit:

Quote

"I've spoken to [coach] Joe [Judge] and we've had conversations about [being the starter next year]," Jones said. "Like I said, there are things I need to improve on. There are things he expects me to improve on moving forward. I understand that and obviously take that very seriously. That is kind of my approach."

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32924013/qb-daniel-jones-believes-new-york-giants-plans

Sounding like if Judge returns so will Jones

Edited December 22, 2021 by Shockwave

[Kip Smithers]

30 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

We may not have a full evaluation on DJ, but we absolutely have enough to make the call on what he is. He is not an elite level QB that can elevate a team. He's got durability issues, sporadic decision making issues, and oddly enough, issues with accuracy from a clean pocket. He's an average QB who can't play a full season. Great backup material, good spot starter, but that's it. More playing time is not going to tell us differently. The easiest way to elevate an entire team is upgrading at QB, which we are in a position to do.

We have enough to say what he isn’t i.e. a QB that can transcend talent. He’s got flaws  for sure some that can be attributed to what he is and others that are attributed to what is around him whether it be protection, lack of a run game, coordinator issues. Yes more playing time as it currently stands isn’t gonna tell you more. Same way getting another QB who isn’t a significant upgrade is silly. 
 

What I see going on here is that prospect of a new QB sounds better than the actual reality of it. It’s sort of like having an a new HC. We don’t know the unknown and so we trick and convince ourselves that just because he’s new that it’s gonna yield different results. We were doing the exact same thing with Jones when he was the pick. We did the ol’ “If we like him, then go and get him” because we weren’t happy with Eli. We did it in 2018 too. We’re trying to fast track this process rather than go by our own timeline. There is no need when the foundations aren’t even in place to even dare to try. 

[Go_Giants]

2 minutes ago, Shockwave said:

You know I was going to attempt to counter this with Eli's slow start to his career and how if we had given up on him after his 3rd season how much of a mistake that would have been. But then I went and reviewed his early stats and jeez..even for being a below average QB those Eli early years were still way more productive and efficient then DJ's. Early Eli was a turnover machine but he at least could put up yards and scores. 2019 DJ just seems like an anomaly now.

What I do worry about and will absolutely rue is... DJ gets cut. Signs with someone like the Saints or Broncos and then absolutely lights up the league and we are stuck here starting over in QB hell. That's why a big part of me wants to just give him a prove it season.

Can also throw in the Browns.

I just don't get strategy of some others here. Draft random QB, pray he becomes the next Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson. Wait 4 years to see if the prays are answered. Most the times the prays are not answer, so rinse and repeat this failed strategy.

Or

Build your team up  and get a solid QB  like a Romo, Matt Schaub or Drew Blesdsoe so it can win now and make the playoffs. Use the process to hit on a true Franchise QB and have a team that can now expect to win and advance in the playoffs.

I have no idea why anyone would support the first draft strategy over the second when the second is far more successful.