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Giant Tidbits: Random team discussion & rumors


y*so*blu
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7 minutes ago, GMENNATION said:

We CANNOT be drafting Kyle Hamilton with one of our picks if the board just happens to fall that way. It doesn't matter if he becomes the best safety of all-time we can't do it. I've said this before but to me EDGE is the #1 priority with our first pick of the draft. Unless the value is just not there, which will be very possible, it is a bigger priority than OL. Bradberry and Adoree Jackson are not always going to be there to lock guys down. We need to transition to true sacks and pressuring the QB, not coverage sacks. This defense - which has soooo much potential - will never be more than slightly above average until they are wrecking game plans. Of course the OL is horrible and we need to invest heavily there but there are day 1 starter quality OL throughout the draft. You cannot say that about EDGE.

If we are getting into the weeds with prospects over just positions, Hutchinson and Thibodeux are the two true game changers at EDGE this year, and they will both most likely be gone by our picks. Hutchinson probably goes #1 and Thibodeux should follow soon after.

I like Karlaftis, but he's not a top-10 guy to me. The guy who I do like after those top 2 that has game changing potential, but isn't as sure of a thing, is Jermaine Johnson out of FSU. However, he is a late first round/early second round guy right now. I don't think the value is going to be there with EDGE where we will be picking.

It's easier said than done, but if we end up in a situation where Hutchinson and Thibodeux are gone by 5 and we are picking 5 and 6, there may be some serious value in taking our favorite OL at 5 and then trading back to the late teens or twenties, picking up another 1st next year in the process, and taking a guy like Jermaine Johnson there.

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https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32822007/inside-dysfunctional-decade-new-york-jets-giants-football-went-wrong-next

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Of their 50 picks from the third round and beyond over the past decade, only linebackers Devon Kennard, Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Goodson and Tae Crowder and offensive tackle Bobby Hart have been consistent starters. Zero Pro Bowls. Zero All-Pros. The Giants haven't had a big hit in the middle rounds since Justin Tuck and Brandon Jacobs in 2005.

Sheesh that is just pathetic...

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1 hour ago, Shockwave said:

It is worst than that, lets not forget Gettleman  traded away a 3rd pick to get useless Olgetree and his expensive contract. 

Gettleman traded away our 3rd and 4th round pick to get Leonard Williams, when he should just gone after him free agency it would have cost of less than what we are paying him now and we would have those draft picks.

Then there is Sam Bael, he needed surgery on his shoulder in the past the Giants knew this. Gettleman used supplemental draft to get him which cost us an early 3rd pick. Then what happens on Sam Bael first practice with the Giants, injures his shoulder out for the season.

Don't even get me started on what Gettleman gave to trade up and get Deandre Baker.

I am not sure there is another GM that has done as much damage to an organization as what Gettleman did to the Giants. 

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On 12/20/2021 at 3:13 PM, minutemancl said:

I still have a feeling that Jones's career is done, despite the Giants constant droning that it isn't. This seems like a David Wilson situation to me. Even more of a reason to take a QB early in this upcoming draft.

It's not even a good QB class IMO. If Jones is done, we need to pick up a veteran game manager and draft some hogs. That way when a great prospect does come along in 2023 or '24, we'll have a line that can block for him.

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18 hours ago, minutemancl said:

If we are getting into the weeds with prospects over just positions, Hutchinson and Thibodeux are the two true game changers at EDGE this year, and they will both most likely be gone by our picks. Hutchinson probably goes #1 and Thibodeux should follow soon after.

I like Karlaftis, but he's not a top-10 guy to me. The guy who I do like after those top 2 that has game changing potential, but isn't as sure of a thing, is Jermaine Johnson out of FSU. However, he is a late first round/early second round guy right now. I don't think the value is going to be there with EDGE where we will be picking.

It's easier said than done, but if we end up in a situation where Hutchinson and Thibodeux are gone by 5 and we are picking 5 and 6, there may be some serious value in taking our favorite OL at 5 and then trading back to the late teens or twenties, picking up another 1st next year in the process, and taking a guy like Jermaine Johnson there.

Why don’t you think Karl is a top 10 guy? Like his only actual weakness is his average arm length. Good against the run, super flexible, explosive, moves for days.

 

I would use rather draft Ikem and Pickett with our first two picks. 

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4 hours ago, y*so*blu said:

It's not even a good QB class IMO. If Jones is done, we need to pick up a veteran game manager and draft some hogs. That way when a great prospect does come along in 2023 or '24, we'll have a line that can block for him.

I like Kenny Pickett, Matt Corrall, and Desmond Ridder a lot from this draft class. I think those guys have franchise QB potential.

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26 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

I like Kenny Pickett, Matt Corrall, and Desmond Ridder a lot from this draft class. I think those guys have franchise QB potential.

At this point I think you would like any QB that is not named Daniel Jones. If there were franchise QB's in this draft don't you think the two QB needy teams ahead of us (Lions and Texans) would draft them. All of sudden this has gone from a weak QB draft class to rivaling the 1983 and 2004 QB draft class.

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You’re seeing QBs who have were highly regarded as draft prospects struggle because the structure around them is crap yet even with that and what you’ve seen on our own team, we wanna repeat the mistake of putting another young QB around a poor structure. Makes no sense. When will we ever learn? 

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Just makes more sense to me to take advantage of Jones final year under his rookie contract. He's only going to cost 8 million. Give him a prove it year. If he produces like his rookie year give him a contract. If he stinks again cut ties and draft another in 2023 or sign a veteran. Use the picks this year on Oline and Edge.

Although I think Pickett, Corrall and Ridder all have a chance to be quality starters I'm not entirely ready to give up on Jones...just yet. And I think the Lions and Texans will pluck one or two of them off the board. Although I wouldn't hate the idea of a new GM going QB and Oline in the 1st round something like Corrall and Neal a combo of Karlaftis and Neal would make me much happier.

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7 minutes ago, Go_Giants said:

At this point I think you would like any QB that is not named Daniel Jones. If there were franchise QB's in this draft don't you think the two QB needy teams ahead of us (Lions and Texans) would draft them. All of sudden this has gone from a weak QB draft class to rivaling the 1983 and 2004 QB draft class.

I think those guys are the ones that have traits that show they can potentially be a franchise QB. There is no Trevor Lawrence in this draft, but there rarely is. You need to swing or you'll never hit.

Just now, Kip Smithers said:

You’re seeing QBs who have were highly regarded as draft prospects struggle because the structure around them is crap yet even with that and what you’ve seen on our own team, we wanna repeat the mistake of putting another young QB around a poor structure. Makes no sense. When will we ever learn? 

You're also seeing teams like the Colts and WFT, who have really good rosters surrounding their QBs but bad QBs, be stuck in that ~.500 limbo with almost 0 chance of getting out unless they mortgage their future to acquire a QB they believe in and actually hit on them. Meanwhile, all the really good players they drafted are having their rookie contracts wasted and they won't be able to retain them all.

Drafting 'around' a QB when you are picking as high as we are is a mistake. For both the long and short term, hitting on a QB is a must. It is the quickest way to transform your franchise and helps you get past that .500 hump you may encounter in the future. Not taking a shot and hoping to just somehow get one later is incredibly foolish. Do you think the Jaguars should have not taken Trevor Lawrence because the rest of their roster is garbage? No, that's stupid. They needed to take Trevor Lawrence but also hit on their other picks and roster construction decisions.

I'm not saying you necessarily have to take one at pick 5/6, but within the first 2/3 rounds you absolutely need to take one whose traits you like. And you need to do that every year until you have one. I like Corrall, Ridder, and Pickett.

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2 minutes ago, Shockwave said:

Just makes more sense to me to take advantage of Jones final year under his rookie contract. He's only going to cost 8 million. Give him a prove it year. If he produces like his rookie year give him a contract. If he stinks again cut ties and draft another in 2023 or sign a veteran. Use the picks this year on Oline and Edge.

Although I think Pickett, Corrall and Ridder all have a chance to be quality starters I'm not entirely ready to give up on Jones...just yet. And I think the Lions and Texans will pluck one or two of them off the board. Although I wouldn't hate the idea of a new GM going QB and Oline in the 1st round something like Corrall and Neal a combo of Karlaftis and Neal would make me much happier.

I think we should take advantage of the final year of Jones's contract and also draft a QB. I'm not saying we cut DJ. For one, he has proven to be injury prone and the backup QBs we've brought in have sucked, so we need (at the very least) a solid backup anyway. Two, if you feel like you have a good team around Jones and he (still) doesn't take the next step, then what? You waste a season. Have another guy with potential you like to step in so you can make an evaluation on 2 QBs in one season. If that guy isn't the answer either, then you get another one the next offseason.

Teams and fans need to stop having so much loyalty to players and coaches that haven't shown anything. The Browns are a very analytically driven team, and there are questions surrounding Baker. I can almost guarantee they take a QB relatively high within the next 2 years, which will shock some people, but shouldn't. You may not necessarily need a QB to be competitive, but you need one to win a Super Bowl. As tempting as it is to just be competitive after we've sucked for the last decade, we need to make better long term decisions too.

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25 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

You're also seeing teams like the Colts and WFT, who have really good rosters surrounding their QBs but bad QBs, be stuck in that ~.500 limbo with almost 0 chance of getting out unless they mortgage their future to acquire a QB they believe in and actually hit on them.

There is nothing wrong with mortgaging the future when you are a QB away.  I am sure the WFT fans are wondering why they didn't trade down to draft Matt Jones. As for the Colts they are doing just fine. We are no where close to to the Colts and we are not just a QB away like the WFT.

31 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

. Do you think the Jaguars should have not taken Trevor Lawrence because the rest of their roster is garbage? No, that's stupid. They needed to take Trevor Lawrence but also hit on their other picks and roster construction decisions.

Trevor Lawrence was considered a can't miss QB, the words generational was event mention for him.  So of course Jaguars couldn't pass on him. I am not hearing can't miss or generational talent from the three QB you mentioned.  Your own words to describe them was potential franchise QB. Look at what Trevor is all ready going through with the Jaguars, there are all ready some doubts about him. Now you want to take a QB of lesser talent and put him on this team?

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1 minute ago, Go_Giants said:

There is nothing wrong with mortgaging the future when you are a QB away.  I am sure the WFT fans are wondering why they didn't trade down to draft Matt Jones. As for the Colts they are doing just fine. We are no where close to to the Colts and we are not just a QB away like the WFT.

No, there isn't a problem with that. But the draft is a crapshoot. What happens when you mortgage your future, with a small window, and miss? You have to start over. Now maybe you have the right people in place and can rebuild quickly, but that is tough. WFT is probably wishing they took Tua instead of Chase Young, if we are being honest. QB is the most important position in football by a large margin and Tua would have that team in playoff position right now. Colts are succeeding entirely in spite of Carson Wentz. He is awful. They are a good team, but I don't think they have a chance at actually going anywhere this season or in the future with him.

 

4 minutes ago, Go_Giants said:

Trevor Lawrence was considered a can't miss QB, the words generational was event mention for him.  So of course Jaguars couldn't pass on him. I am not hearing can't miss or generational talent from the three QB you mentioned.  Your own words to describe them was potential franchise QB. Look at what Trevor is all ready going through with the Jaguars, there are all ready some doubts about him. Now you want to take a QB of lesser talent and put him on this team?

It doesn't matter the actual QB. The point is that the strength of the rest of your roster cannot preclude you from taking a QB you like.

It seems to me that you are acting like the draft is a science when it isn't. Again, it is a crapshoot. Guys are paid pretty decent money to determine how good these guys are and how they will pan out and it is more likely you miss on every pick than hit on 2. You have to approach the draft that way. You have to keep swinging for QBs based on valuable traits and just hope that one pans out. Not taking chances on a QB when you don't have one is a really poor way to build your team. Taking chances on QBs with desirable traits is how the Chiefs got Mahomes, how the Seahawks got Wilson, how the Cowboys got Dak, how the Raiders got Carr, etc. And it is incredibly rare, but it is how the Patriots had Brady too. The Giants used to do this a lot under Reese, and it was the right move. The problems were that the QBs didn't pan out/weren't good and Eli was one of the most durable QBs ever, but it doesn't mean the process wasn't correct.

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5 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

It seems to me that you are acting like the draft is a science when it isn't. Again, it is a crapshoot.

No it is not a science, but you can apply some logic to it. In no way is it the crapshoot you are saying it is. If it was the Jets would have had a franchise QB many years ago. 

The Chiefs didn't luck into Holmes they targeted and traded up  to get Holmes.  Just like Ernie Accorsi didn't luck into Eli, he targeted him and traded up to get Eli. Again logic, we can apply logic get extra draft capitol and in stronger draft class target the QB we want, after we fix this team.

Russel Wilson 3rd round pick,  Dak Prescott 4th round pick, Tom Brady 6th round pick.  None of those teams knew what they had and none of them were expected to be the starter. If there is a QB the Giants have a first round grade on that drops to the third round or lower, sure that is the only case I have no problems with the crapshoot approach, but again there is still some logic being applied. Again don't be the Jets and draft a QB to just draft a QB doing that is how you stay the Jets.

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2 minutes ago, Go_Giants said:

The Chiefs didn't luck into Holmes they targeted and traded up  to get Holmes.  Just like Ernie Accorsi didn't luck into Eli, he targeted him and traded up to get Eli. Again logic, we can apply logic get extra draft capitol and in stronger draft class target the QB we want, after we fix this team.

You're only focusing on the positive cases. The Bears traded up for Mitch Trubisky that same draft that Mahomes went in 8 picks later. Joe Burrow was a can't miss prospect and #1 overall pick in 2020, yet Justin Herbert, who went 5 picks later and was laughed at as a selection, is probably the best young QB in football. It is a total crapshoot. It is almost never the case in a given draft that the best QB is the one picked first, the 2nd best is the one picked 2nd, etc.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you are advocating for drafting position players only and NOT taking a QB this upcoming year, and going so far as to say don't take a QB at all until the team around him is good. I think that is a massive mistake for many reasons. Why is it better to build the team that way? What happens when you miss on a few positional players along the way? How do you actually get close to competing for a Super Bowl this way?

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