Week 8 Gameday Thread: Ravens vs. Steelers

[wackywabbit]

13 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

I am absolutely not giving him a blank check unless he pulls another mvp type run out of his ***. I think we should treat him like Dak. 

Dak's going to get the check too. Cap space has no value compared to a QB who will consistently lead a winning team.

Edited November 1, 2020 by wackywabbit

[diamondbull424]

15 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I can't give out any more footballs today but yeah I can agree with this post entirely. I just feel like I don't care who truly manages teh passing game, I just want that completely overhauled because it's BEYOND trash right now.

HOwever, with regards to ROman, I feel like if we lose him (fire him or whatever), we're losing that creativity that drives the best run game in the NFL, and in today's NFL having that wrinkle and that identity can win you games and make you an elite team, especially when paired with arguably the best defense in the NFL as well. He definitely has his faults, but I feel like overall the job he's done with this team's identity on offense has been tremendous.

I don’t disagree, he’s superb. That adjustment to the pitch in this game after the Steelers adjusted to stopping the read, was money and will cause DC bad dreams when they have to prepare for it moving forward.

But at the same time, if this team had to choose... I’d choose a passing game genius over a run game genius any day. Why? Because Lamar is going to, regardless of scheme... make this a great rushing attack. Even if it’s only a top 10 rushing attack and our RBs are only average 4 YPC, with Lamar operating as a passer on even a Derek Carr level with the Raiders... with then adding in his running ability and impact... and this team would be far better and more complete in its ability to beat opposing squads.

Roman as OC sharpens our strength but amplifies our weakness. The only true problem I see in replacing him is that you can’t guarantee that you get a passing genius. In all likelihood, you replace him and get some overrated offensive mind that was actually being propped up by someone of legit ability below him.

That said, I think best case scenario would be the Eagles continuing to lose and Doug Pederson being fired, no team giving him another HC gig right away, and Roman being comfortable with downgrading to run game coordinator to Pederson as he sharpens his pass concept acumen under someone that’s proven to be one of the best in the league in that respect.

[M.10.E]

6 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Dak's going to get the check too. Cap space has no value compared to a QB who will consistently lead a winning team.

I’m just say we wait as long as possible before giving him the bag (if even at all). No reason to pay him after this year. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by M.10.E

[DontTazeMeBro]

Idk where I’m at on the Greg Roman thing. The last couple weeks Arizona has started to do something similar with Kyler Murray, although not entirely committing to it. And that’s with a coach who’s known nothing but the air raid since he was in college. So maybe it’s not that difficult.

[BrettsBeard]

I’m just a lurker so I don’t care if I get in trouble for coming, here, LOL. But I don’t understand the complaining and fan booing of Heyward with 8 seconds left...you think he was faking being unable to get off the field? And are mad that the clock was stopped instead of your offense having to spike it? Regardless, a penalty is only called when a player is “injured” without a timeout  ... I can see an argument for the refs looking at the clock.

As far as penalties and the refs, that really weak call early on Heyward—who pushed Lamar when he was still in bounds—that helped turn a 3-and-out into a TD may have changed the complexion of the game.  It helped the Ravens gain momentum versus potentially being down 2 scores and needing to change their gameplan. So cry me a river about the refs.
 

Looking forward to the rematch!

[wackywabbit]

23 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

I’m just say we wait as long as possible before giving him the bag (if even at all). No reason to pay him after this year. 

He'll just get more expensive as the cap goes back up.

The team is more talented on defense than offense. A lot is put on Lamar and I don't think people fully appreciate that. We can't just put any QB in there and expect to score 20 points with no mistakes every week. This week the turnover flood gate broke, but that's not typical for Lamar. That sequence on the last TD drive where he gets his spectacular TD run called back and then converts a 2nd and 22 to go ahead is not a sequence we saw for years before Lamar got here. Even being 5yards behind the sticks meant a punt was coming 95% of the time.

[wackywabbit]

9 minutes ago, BrettsBeard said:

I’m just a lurker so I don’t care if I get in trouble for coming, here, LOL. But I don’t understand the complaining and fan booing of Heyward with 8 seconds left...you think he was faking being unable to get off the field? And are mad that the clock was stopped instead of your offense having to spike it? Regardless, a penalty is only called when a player is “injured” without a timeout  ... I can see an argument for the refs looking at the clock.

As far as penalties and the refs, that really weak call early on Heyward—who pushed Lamar when he was still in bounds—that helped turn a 3-and-out into a TD may have changed the complexion of the game.  It helped the Ravens gain momentum versus potentially being down 2 scores and needing to change their gameplan. So cry me a river about the refs.
 

Looking forward to the rematch!

Most of us are not blaming the refs for that game. Refs are liable to swing a game that's close and we had an opportunities to make that game not close.

But also, go away. Fans can vent in their team forum, that's how it works here.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

20 minutes ago, BrettsBeard said:

I’m just a lurker so I don’t care if I get in trouble for coming, here, LOL. But I don’t understand the complaining and fan booing of Heyward with 8 seconds left...you think he was faking being unable to get off the field?

I did, yes. He faked an injury on the previous drive in order to buy the defense some time to catch their breath while we were gashing y'all in the run.

20 minutes ago, BrettsBeard said:

And are mad that the clock was stopped instead of your offense having to spike it? Regardless, a penalty is only called when a player is “injured” without a timeout  ... I can see an argument for the refs looking at the clock.

As far as penalties and the refs, that really weak call early on Heyward—who pushed Lamar when he was still in bounds—that helped turn a 3-and-out into a TD may have changed the complexion of the game.  It helped the Ravens gain momentum versus potentially being down 2 scores and needing to change their gameplan. So cry me a river about the refs.

The refs were bad for both sides early, but bad ONLY for the Ravens late in the game. Steelers were penalized 3 times and the Ravens 9 times, and we're not an undisciplined team - we average 6.2 penalties/game. There's no way you can justify the refs today.

 

[M.10.E]

18 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

He'll just get more expensive as the cap goes back up.

The team is more talented on defense than offense. A lot is put on Lamar and I don't think people fully appreciate that. We can't just put any QB in there and expect to score 20 points with no mistakes every week. This week the turnover flood gate broke, but that's not typical for Lamar. That sequence on the last TD drive where he gets his spectacular TD run called back and then converts a 2nd and 22 to go ahead is not a sequence we saw for years before Lamar got here. Even being 5yards behind the sticks meant a punt was coming 95% of the time.

I’ll take that chance (him getting more expensive). You can never overpay a true top 3 QB. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

I’ll take that chance (him getting more expensive). You can never overpay a true top 3 QB. 

What is your plan if you let Lamar walk? 

[M.10.E]

2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

What is your plan if you let Lamar walk? 

We have at least 2.5 years to plan for that. I’m sure our FO can figure something out. I just don’t want us to give him $40 a year after this year if he’s playing like this. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by M.10.E

[AngusMcFife]

I was so disappointed when Roman called the QB draw on 4th down that effectively killed our chances. At this point it is clear Roman is stunting Lamar's growth as a passer. Lamar is not going to learn to pass under pressure if he never gets any reps doing that. 

I stated 2 weeks ago, I think the goal of this team should be to win a playoff game. Lamar is pressing and being careless in these big games, he needs to learn to chill and let the game come to him.

Also, he needs to threaten the deep outer 3rds of the field way more. It is obvious defenses are not respecting the threat to throw in those areas. 

[diamondbull424]

47 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

I am absolutely not giving him a blank check unless he pulls another mvp type run out of his ***. I think we should treat him like Dak. 

Flacco got paid top QB money after being only a top 12-15 QB in the league and having an elite playoff run. Lamar is a top 3-7 QB in the league IMO. Flacco didn’t perform well in the postseason until his 3rd NFL season. So unless Lamar doesn’t get this team to the playoffs or he performs similarly bad in this postseason as the ones prior, Lamar deserves $40-45m/year just like Mahomes and Watson.

So if/when Lamar takes less for the exact extension that Russell Wilson just signed, people need to be thank Lamar for setting this team up to be in a better position to compete than what he could have, like Brady did for the Pats. Probably be even a bit less critical of him considering his overall impact to our offense than some fans are like a particular fan sometimes associated with the state of Pennsylvania... Anyways, that being said IFFF Lamar chooses to bend the Ravens over for $45m on a 4 year extension, I won’t blame him for doing it. I’m a fan of guys making as much money as they can... however, just like I did with Flacco, I will start to judge Lamar more harshly.

But on a rookie deal, as a 23 year old still learning the position who has added the ability to audible at the line some to his young repertoire (and potentially more tools), I will absolutely go to bat for the guy. Why not? Without the immense value he provides this team for peanut level value (like literally he’s probably being paid as much money as Onwausor is probably worth 😂) this team would've had to fire a good coach and wouldn’t be anywhere near the level of best team in the league, likely stuck in a division competing for the improving Bengals as the worst team in the division.

Immediately from stepping onto the field this offense went from the 31st ranked rushing attack in the league to by far the best rushing attack in the NFL and one that just gashed the NFL’s best run defense for over 200 yards rushing. Roman was on the staff for that 31st rank, yet as soon as Lamar stepped onto the field, it bumped up to a historic pace?

That’s the kind of value that is provided by Lamar and should be attributed to him. Whereas before Lamar took over this passing attack with similar weapons was mediocre and provided similar passing output. So he hasn’t improved this team much, if any, in the passing attack. But this team is historically good and reliable at rushing because of Lamar. That impact will likely carry him through roughly 30 years old if RBs are anything to go off of... but Mike Vick showed with the Eagles that it could potentially go on longer, just to a reduced degree.

TL;DR- So long story not short, I think Lamar is worth as much as $42.5m per on a 4-5 year extension. That assumed he doesn’t win the Super Bowl this season off a magical run, else his market value would increase to $45m+. A 4 year extension, with his 5th year option exercised after this season, would sign Lamar through his age 29 season where we can reevaluate his overall offensive impact, his age 30 second would be provided by a 5 year extension. Either deal would be acceptable. With the new CBA rule for 5th year options, Lamar will qualify for the franchise tag (in value) anyway if/when he makes the pro bowl this season off a 1st ballot either this season or next (2 PBs earn you franchise tag vs just top 10 as in year past). So Lamar on his 5th year is going to be already worth about $30m/year for activating that option. So overall a 4 year extension at the above would place the actual deal value at essentially 5 years, $212.5m, $40m APY.

and because he doesn’t have an agent that takes away 10% of every deal and another 15% for endorsements (on average), so considering that into rough calculations I’d be willing to bet/estimate that Lamar takes less than what he’s worth, similar to how having a super model as a wife allowed Tom Brady to take less with the Patriots. Thus I predict Lamar will sign for less than market value that points to Deshaun Watson as the kind of value and because of that, the Ravens will reward him with a longer extension than what his playing style (elite running ability) might “safely” reward. Thus TL;DR I’ll predict Lamar signs a 6 year extension, with an actual deal value of 7 years, $260m, $37.1m APY. Lamar gets to brag to all the rappers that he’s making a quarter of a million, while the Ravens and he get the chance to reasonably compete with such a deal for the long haul. If Lamar continues to play well through 32 years old, that later value might look like a steal as NFL contracts continue to increase, if not... then he’s no different than Flacco and we’re a mediocre team year in and year out that is a fringe playoff team and while I wouldn’t like it, we’ve seen it before with our QB and other QBs like Flacco and Kirk Cousins, so it’s whatever. Do I think fans will still continue to trash Lamar even after he takes far less than I anticipate his market value to be? Absolutely I do, but I will be far more lenient in such a scenario... Not as much as I am with him now, on a rookie deal, but far more than I was for Flacco post deal with his poor performance. Though I’m sure for some PA area type Ravens fans, their level of criticism will only increase... we might graduate towards legit assassination plots (assuming we’re not already there, in which case we’d graduate to an attempt).

[wackywabbit]

27 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I was so disappointed when Roman called the QB draw on 4th down that effectively killed our chances.

It wasn't my favorite playcall, but I actually thought it was going to work 1 second into the play. If it was a throw and it didn't work, then Roman would have even more heat, IMO. That particular drive was fueled entirely by runs.

To your broader point, I AM gaining more and more confidence that this team IS getting ready for the playoffs. Playoffs were never a doubt for us with this 7th seed addition. Does it really matter if round 1 is a road game at buffalo vs a home game against the Colts/Raiders/Browns My opinion is no. They are letting Lamar do things and that has included some extra throws in situation where they don't need to. Lamar wasn't careless against the Chiefs, they just had an ineffective offense. He tried to do more today and it burned us in a big way a couple times. But, if we end up with rematches against the Steelers and Chiefs, which is the goal, the end result of the prior matchup isn't going to be a factor. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by wackywabbit

[diamondbull424]

22 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I was so disappointed when Roman called the QB draw on 4th down that effectively killed our chances. At this point it is clear Roman is stunting Lamar's growth as a passer. Lamar is not going to learn to pass under pressure if he never gets any reps doing that. 

I stated 2 weeks ago, I think the goal of this team should be to win a playoff game. Lamar is pressing and being careless in these big games, he needs to learn to chill and let the game come to him.

Also, he needs to threaten the deep outer 3rds of the field way more. It is obvious defenses are not respecting the threat to throw in those areas. 

Fair evaluation, I think they don’t respect it because Lamar doesn’t particularly have the arm to complete those passes safely, consistently.. as Joe Flacco had. We saw Drew Brees and Tom Brady increase their arm strength some after they became pros, so I think there’s still some hope there for improvement, but we’ve also seen their OCs able to put together passing schemes that didn’t consistently rely on them to make passes that flirted with their weaknesses.

For that reason, I’m with you on Roman not allowing Lamar to progress more as a passer. If we keep with Roman, Lamar becomes Kapernick. But if the Ravens move on and target someone in an Andy Reid or (dare I say) Sean McVay/Kyle Shanahan coaching tree, there’s a chance he can maximize and fulfill his potential long term and be more Matt Ryan than Derek Carr (as I think FTMP the only thing truly separating those QBs are scheme and WR talent) career arc wise as passers.