Raiders Offense Thread 2.0:

[ronjon1990]

5 hours ago, NYRaider said:

He was cut by Philadelphia and signed a 1 yr/$1.5M deal with us. In his last season with Philadelphia he was terrible and he was WR #5 on the depth chart after training camp until Tyrell Williams got hurt. 

Philadelphia is also about as dysfunctional as it gets and Prince Harry is not a good QB. 

Moreover though-

You've defended the Snead move by talking about how good he was despite being awful in 2017....so bad he got passed up by Brandon Coleman. And he was bad and useless on a team 100% devoid of WR talent while playing with your professed man crush at QB, MR. MVP4LIFE himself. 

You've defended John Brown's signing, but he's a guy who has had diminishing returns every year he's with a team, coming off of an injury, and let go because he would be fighting for WR4 at best in Buffalo. 

Ironically, neither Snead nor Brown had seasons significantly better than Agholor's immediately before signing with us. 

More importantly though, you skirted the question. 

You claim he was damaged goods (then defend Brown and Snead? Ok.) and that MOST didn't think he'd even make the roster. 

I don't believe that's true at all. Most of what I saw on here trended towards him being a potential steal who could become our top WR for the year. There was certainly a good deal of caution surrounding the optimism, but I don't recall even a simple majority thinking he wasn't making the team. 

Your biases are showing brightly in this debate with how you've fumbled stats, purposefully avoided addressing Snead's objectively crap history post 2016, and making bold claims about how little Agholor was regarded. Fact is, Agholor's upside when we got him was greater than Brown and Snead's combined.

You're acting like Brown dipped out in search of a new contract as opposed to realizing he wasn't going to get playing time in Buffalo, when the reality is he's a WR4 at this point who happened to have a couple of good years before age and injury. He was a serviceable WR often on teams without more than 2 of them, so yeah, his stats look decent...until teams replace him. 

You're citing Snead's history in New Orleans from years ago while ignoring 2017 and countering your own arguments regarding Lamar Jackson's abilities as a QB by claiming Snead never played with solid QBs in Baltimore, rather than recognizing that Snead was a flash in the pan on a team known for creating WR talent from guys selling BIGA$$ beers off Poydras. 

An objective observer would say Brown's age and injury is a downgrade and his history is spotty enough that if he's playing over Ruggs or Edwards there's a problem. So he really shouldn't be better than 4th. Snead? Snead might make the roster over Zay Jones. Woopty. 

So, no, neither are clear upgrades over Agholor nor offer as much upside, and it's taking you a ridiculous amount of selective circular reasoning to even try just justifying your position on them. 

 

[NYRaider]

3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

You're acting like Brown dipped out in search of a new contract as opposed to realizing he wasn't going to get playing time in Buffalo, when the reality is he's a WR4 at this point who happened to have a couple of good years before age and injury. He was a serviceable WR often on teams without more than 2 of them, so yeah, his stats look decent...until teams replace him. 

You're citing Snead's history in New Orleans from years ago while ignoring 2017 and countering your own arguments regarding Lamar Jackson's abilities as a QB by claiming Snead never played with solid QBs in Baltimore, rather than recognizing that Snead was a flash in the pan on a team known for creating WR talent from guys selling BIGA$$ beers off Poydras. 

So, no, neither are clear upgrades over Agholor nor offer as much upside, and it's taking you a ridiculous amount of selective circular reasoning to even try just justifying your position on them. 

In John Brown's 2 years in Buffalo he averaged 63 yards per game, Nelly averaged 56 yards per game for us last season. I'd 1 million percent rather have Brown at $3M than Agholor at $11M, especially considering Nelly's best year was more of a flash in the pan than anything else. In the years that Brown has actually been healthy he has averaged 800 yards and 5 TD per season, on par with the production that Nelly gave us last year. 

Snead's two years of production in New Orleans was far more productive than any two year span of Nelly's career. In 2018 he had 448 yards in 9 games with Flacco at QB and 203 yards in 7 games with Jackson at QB. He had 432 yards and 3 TD's last season and in Nelly's final season with Philly he had 363 yards and 3 TD. Snead's only 28 and has been productive in other places in the past. 

You're acting like Agholor is some amazing, un-replaceable player, when in reality I'd bet that Ruggs has a more productive season next year. Up in New England with Cam, Nelly will probably have like 500 yards. 

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

In John Brown's 2 years in Buffalo he averaged 63 yards per game, Nelly averaged 56 yards per game for us last season. I'd 1 million percent rather have Brown at $3M than Agholor at $11M, especially considering Nelly's best year was more of a flash in the pan than anything else. In the years that Brown has actually been healthy he has averaged 800 yards and 5 TD per season, on par with the production that Nelly gave us last year. 

Snead's two years of production in New Orleans was far more productive than any two year span of Nelly's career. In 2018 he had 448 yards in 9 games with Flacco at QB and 203 yards in 7 games with Jackson at QB. He had 432 yards and 3 TD's last season and in Nelly's final season with Philly he had 363 yards and 3 TD. Snead's only 28 and has been productive in other places in the past. 

You're acting like Agholor is some amazing, un-replaceable player, when in reality I'd bet that Ruggs has a more productive season next year. Up in New England with Cam, Nelly will probably have like 500 yards. 

Nelly was never benched for Brandon Coleman and played with far worse QB play than either Brown or Snead. 

Still, you're ignoring the point:

"Most" people didn't assume he'd bust. Go look it up. I, and numerous others, said he could easily have a career season with us. 

And no, I do not care what Brown did 2+ years ago. Nor do I care what Snead did in 2015. For the last 4 seasons, he's been a nobody. Period. 

By your logic, Peyton Hillis is a better RB than Josh Jacobs because at one point, years ago, he had a more productive season than Jacobs has ever had. 

I'm not acting like Agholor is irreplaceable, I'm calling you out for your nonsensical support of Snead based on 5 and 6 years ago, your sudden refusal to acknowledge you think Jackson is an MVP QB Snead couldn't produce with, your nonsensical proclamation that many weren't cautiously optimistic about Agholor's signing last year when the evidence is there showing otherwise, and your lack of objectively in comparing the 3 WRs. There's a big difference. 

[NYRaider]

13 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

"Most" people didn't assume he'd bust. Go look it up. I, and numerous others, said he could easily have a career season with us.  

On 3/21/2020 at 1:08 PM, ronjon1990 said:

He wasn't signed to start (Williams and whoever we draft will be our top 2, with Renfrow as 3rd) and will likely be our 5th or 6th receiving option. 

He'll compete with the back end of our pass catchers, and if he returns to form/improves then we have a steal. At worst, he's a low end starter/high end rotational piece. Definitely not the total bum a lot of Eagles chatter makes him out to be. It's not like he's Seth Roberts.

For the immediate purposes, it's a fantastic signing that could pay huge dividends in the future. Great HOF WR? No. But if he's who you plug in a rotation as a 4th/5th WR, you're doing something right. 

[NYRaider]

@ronjon1990

On 3/21/2020 at 12:10 PM, Darbsk said:

This years JJ Nelson then I guess, don't have any expectations for him so any positive contribution will be a bonus.

On 3/21/2020 at 2:56 PM, RaiderX said:

Doss back on the bubble again. Guess Agholor still has some upside and ain't a terrible #4.

On 3/21/2020 at 7:19 PM, SilverNBlackFan said:

Wouldnt be shocked if he's this years Ryan Grant/JJ Nelson. Guys who have had some success in the league but ultimately dont last here.

Meh signing...we'll see

On 3/23/2020 at 2:19 PM, CaliforniaKid7 said:

You can’t not like this signing at this price. He’s instantly our best returner and anything past this is a bonus. I think he’ll be a solid #4/5 WR for us pending the draft. 

On 3/21/2020 at 2:38 PM, NightTrainLane said:

Countdown to Nelson getting a case of the dropies every other game and not blocking AT ALL down field for Jacobs and Waller and me reposting in this tread like,"...well...sh**"!"

On 3/21/2020 at 2:52 PM, Humble_Beast said:

I was just saying our depth at WR sucked. Nelson is hard to trust as a starter but is a nice slot backup for Hunter. Probably our 3rd best wideout behind Hunter, and Williams 

On 3/21/2020 at 3:43 PM, big_palooka said:

Had a solid 2017 and 2018 and fell off big last year. Worth a shot to see if he can put it together. 

On 3/21/2020 at 9:20 PM, dante9876 said:

Any kind of injury and he is definitely done here. He betta not miss any training camp time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by NYRaider

[jpaulthe1st]

3 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

@ronjon1990

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Receipts 

[NYRaider]

4 minutes ago, jpaulthe1st said:

Receipts 

People thought Agholor would be battling with Keelan Doss for a roster spot when we signed him, lol. 

[ronjon1990]

"He'll compete with the back end of our pass catchers, and if he returns to form/improves then we have a steal. At worst, he's a low end starter/high end rotational piece. Definitely not the total bum a lot of Eagles chatter makes him out to be. It's not like he's Seth Roberts."

"Guess Agholor still has some upside and ain't a terrible #4."

"You can’t not like this signing at this price. He’s instantly our best returner and anything past this is a bonus. I think he’ll be a solid #4/5 WR for us pending the draft. "

"Nelson is hard to trust as a starter but is a nice slot backup for Hunter. Probably our 3rd best wideout behind Hunter, and Williams"

"Worth a shot to see if he can put it together. "

READING. COMPREHENSION. Literally 1/2 of your "receipts" are the antithesis of your argument. We didn't sign Agholor to be our #1, and NOBODY was making that argument. We still had Williams and every nitwit under the sun knew that we'd be going WR in round 1. Round 1 guy, Williams, Renfrow. There's your firm top 3. Clear as day, EVERYONE knew it was coming. 

Your "receipts" have him being called a lower end starter, 3rd best wideout, WR4, etc., and guess what? That's what we signed him for. As I said, most people had cautious optimism. Do I need to pull out a dictionary for you to understand what those two words mean in conjunction? 

Good Lord you're terrible at debates. You literally went back and dug up old posts that show exactly what I said they would- very few people thought he'd bust, rather many saw him as someone who had plenty of potential to rebound and surprise- and you're trying to claim a victory lap? That's insane. 

If I claimed people were sold that he'd come in and become WR1 immediately, you might have a point. Only problem is, I didn't. Your premise of people assuming he'd bust is incorrect, and you just proved it without me having to do all the leg work. Consider that a free lesson in pretrial litigation from your's truly. I usually charge big bucks for that. 

[NYRaider]

13 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Good Lord you're terrible at debates. You literally went back and dug up old posts that show exactly what I said they would- very few people thought he'd bust, rather many saw him as someone who had plenty of potential to rebound and surprise- and you're trying to claim a victory lap? That's insane. 

Do you lack reading comprehension, like 50% of people didn't even think he'd make the roster, and the other 50% said he's a solid WR 3-6, including yourself.

But you said that a lot of people, yourself included, thought he could have a career year for us. 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by NYRaider

[big_palooka]

7 hours ago, NYRaider said:

People thought Agholor would be battling with Keelan Doss for a roster spot when we signed him, lol. 

My quote was spot on. He put it together here.

I don't see many thinking he was battling Doss for a roster spot. Consensus seems to be he was a good 3-4th option in the offense. 

[ronjon1990]

6 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Do you lack reading comprehension, like 50% of people didn't even think he'd make the roster, and the other 50% said he's a solid WR 3-6, including yourself.

But you said that a lot of people, yourself included, thought he could have a career year for us. 

 

You're aware that 50% isn't "most", right?

You're aware that he was signed with the anticipation being that he would slide in behind Renfrow, right?

Go back to Sylvan, bro. 

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

My quote was spot on. He put it together here.

I don't see many thinking he was battling Doss for a roster spot. Consensus seems to be he was a good 3-4th option in the offense. 

Dude cited 9 people, 5 of whom said he'd be our 3rd or 4th best WR, 1 was non-committal pending health, 1 who called it a meh signing supplemented by "we'll see", 1 who thought he'd at least get enough playing time to drop passes and not block for starters down field insinuating at least enough faith to be a 3/4 WR, and 1 with non expectations. 

That's an 7-1 ratio in favor of him making the roster and having at least a fair amount of playing time, with 1 abstaining pending health. But this joker still thinks his point stands at least a 50% chance of being correct. 

It's laughable. And he's just talking out of his Gruden. He cherry picks everything. Just like he has with Snead's New Orleans productivity with no mention of 2017, talking about him not playing with good QBs in Baltimore while literally throwing a class A hissy fit over anyone questioning Lamar Jackson's status as a consensus MVP level QB. And he has no answers for such things, just empty word vomit. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by ronjon1990

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

You're aware that 50% isn't "most", right?

You're aware that he was signed with the anticipation being that he would slide in behind Renfrow, right?

Go back to Sylvan, bro. 

You said many people, yourself included, thought he might have a career year, when you said he would be WR 5/6...

[NYRaider]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I don't see many thinking he was battling Doss for a roster spot. Consensus seems to be he was a good 3-4th option in the offense. 

One person said he was the third best WR on the roster pre-draft, everyone else said he was a decent WR 4-6 or not making the team.

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said:

Dude cited 9 people, 5 of whom said he'd be our 3rd or 4th best WR

Do you lack reading comprehension? 

Person 1 (you): Will likely be our 5th or 6th receiving option. 

Person 2 (Darbsk): This years JJ Nelson, don't have any expectations. 

Person 3 (RaiderX): Guess Nelly has some upside and isn't a terrible #4. 

Person 4 (SNB Fan): This years JJ Nelson, meh signing, I don't think he makes the team. 

Person 5 (CK7): I think he'll be a solid WR 4/5 pending the draft. 

Person 6 (NightTrainLane): Countdown to Nelly getting the droppies every game. 

Person 7 (Humble Beast): Nelson is hard to trust as a starter but probably our 3rd best wideout. (Pre draft) 

Person 8 (BP): Fell off big last year, worth a shot to see if he can bounce back. 

Person 9 (Dante): Any kind of injury during camp and he won't make the roster. 

One person said he was our third best WR before the draft and the consensus opinion on him was not high at all when he signed with us.