Raiders Offense Thread 2.0:

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

I am not saying you need a big WR to have a 1000 yard WR.  What I am saying is I do not think we have a 1000 WR or a big body WR to be a red-zone threat.  Not we do have players that can develop into that or a couple vets that might reproduce what Agholor did.  I just do not think it is likely and those that do produce it will be because Carr has to throw to someone.  I believe Marshall if he goes to the right team will out produce all of our WRs.  One of those right teams would be Las Vegas.  The question is is he the right player for Las Vegas and that will come down to the how the draft falls.  If he is there at 48 the chances are very high that he is BPA by a lot.  I personally think he might be gone around our 1st round pick after he just timed as fast as Chase at the pro day.  He struggles a little with the high fastball but a 6'3" 200 lb WR running a 4.38 40 he is not going to last.

John Brown has been a 1,000+ yard WR multiple times in his career and is a better player than Agholor. Willie Snead was a near 1,000 yard WR when he played in New Orleans and his production when he played with a legit QB was much better than any year Agholor ever had in Philadelphia. 

Marshall had issues with drops and the majority of his production at LSU came in the slot and on screen passes. He's pretty frail/weak and has half of a season of being "the guy" in college. It's easy to fall in love with the traits but Edwards was a traits guy as well that was more productive than Marshall in college and had some issues adjusting to the NFL as a rookie. So to just assume that Marshall would be able to come in and be better than all of our WR's as a rookie is a stretch. 

Rookie WR's rarely ever come in and produce at a high level, there have been 9 rookies in the last decade that have been 1,000+ yard guys in their first season. 

As far as our red zone offense is concerned Waller is a great red zone target, Moreau had 5 TD's in the red zone as a rookie but was still recovering from the ACL injury last year, and Edwards improvement should help us there as well. Not to mention Kenyan Drake has been one of the best RB's in the red zone in the league over the past two seasons. 

Building around skill position players when we just invested premium picks and cap space into them the last two off-seasons is a sure fire way to continue on the path to mediocrity. The good teams build through the trenches and have good defenses. Our offensive and defensive lines are both major question marks and our defense was the worst in franchise history last season. 

[oakdb36]

The whole point of signing Brown and Snead is to have vets capable of stepping into starting roles if the 2nd year WRs don't develop like they're hoping. We got to give the young guys the time to show what they can be before we move onto the next young guy. You don't give up on players after 1 year unless there's a bigger problem than on field production.

[ronjon1990]

3 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Willie Snead was a near 1,000 yard WR when he played in New Orleans

That was 6 and 5 years ago with a HOF QB, pass happy system, and an aging Marquess Colston and Brandin Cooks as his major competition in 2015, before Cooks and a rookie Michael Thomas being his major competition in 2016. 

You're also forgetting his 8-92-0 over 7 starts 2017 in the same offense when he got supplanted by Brandon Coleman. 

I won't hold low stat lines for WRs in the WR wasteland of Baltimore against someone, because you're right, they don't have real QBs (though I distinctly remember you arguing vehemently about Lamar Jackson being a consistent MVP calibre QB and among the best in the league...so what happened to Snead in Jackson's MVP year of 2019 for him to only throw up a 31-339-5 stat line across 11 starts?). 

Regardless, you seem to be vastly overhyping Snead and conveniently forgetting his awful end in New Orleans and lack of production with an MVP QB in Baltimore. He got force fed in a system that makes WRs look great and was a pretty much non-factor when he last played in Baltimore, now 2 years ago. 

[big_palooka]

What is the Brown better than Agholor argument even about?

Brown is 31 on the backend of his career. Agholor is 27 and ascending in his. I don't get the comparison.

Brown is a serviceable vet. If he has as big a role as Agholor did last year, then the Raiders missed on the Ruggs pick. This is Ruggs job to lose.

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

What is the Brown better than Agholor argument even about?

Brown is 31 on the backend of his career. Agholor is 27 and ascending in his. I don't get the comparison.

Brown is a serviceable vet. If he has as big a role as Agholor did last year, then the Raiders missed on the Ruggs pick. This is Ruggs job to lose.

Agholor was damaged goods when he got here, most didn't even think he'd make the roster.

[ronjon1990]

42 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Agholor was damaged goods when he got here, most didn't even think he'd make the roster.

Most, or you and some others? Because I certainly did, and I recall more than a few others calling him a potential boom signing. 

[drfrey13]

15 hours ago, NYRaider said:

John Brown has been a 1,000+ yard WR multiple times in his career and is a better player than Agholor. Willie Snead was a near 1,000 yard WR when he played in New Orleans and his production when he played with a legit QB was much better than any year Agholor ever had in Philadelphia. 

Marshall had issues with drops and the majority of his production at LSU came in the slot and on screen passes. He's pretty frail/weak and has half of a season of being "the guy" in college. It's easy to fall in love with the traits but Edwards was a traits guy as well that was more productive than Marshall in college and had some issues adjusting to the NFL as a rookie. So to just assume that Marshall would be able to come in and be better than all of our WR's as a rookie is a stretch. 

Rookie WR's rarely ever come in and produce at a high level, there have been 9 rookies in the last decade that have been 1,000+ yard guys in their first season. 

As far as our red zone offense is concerned Waller is a great red zone target, Moreau had 5 TD's in the red zone as a rookie but was still recovering from the ACL injury last year, and Edwards improvement should help us there as well. Not to mention Kenyan Drake has been one of the best RB's in the red zone in the league over the past two seasons. 

Building around skill position players when we just invested premium picks and cap space into them the last two off-seasons is a sure fire way to continue on the path to mediocrity. The good teams build through the trenches and have good defenses. Our offensive and defensive lines are both major question marks and our defense was the worst in franchise history last season. 

Yes Waller had 6 redzone TDs which was a drastic improvement from the year before.  Our WRs got 5 total and 3 of those were to Agholor.  Our WRs combined, this includes Brown and Snead, had 12 TDs last year.  Right now we are relying on players that did not have close to good seasons last year and 2 rookies that have produced very little.  For WRs currently on the team Renfrow was the only player to break 500 yards last year and Snead and Brown are in the lead with 3 TDs a piece.  I would be willing to bet there are 5-6 rookie WRs that beat 656 yards and 3 TDs.  6 rookie WRs beat the yards last year, 6 rookie WRs beat the TDs, and 5 rookies beat both.  So once again how is it such a far fetched idea that a rookie WR could not come in next year and be our #1 WR.  Carr is also a better QB than all five rookie WRs had.

Edited April 3, 2021 by drfrey13

[MrOaktown_56]

52 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Yes Waller had 6 redzone TDs which was a drastic improvement from the year before.  Our WRs got 5 total and 3 of those were to Agholor.  Our WRs combined, this includes Brown and Snead, had 12 TDs last year.  Right now we are relying on players that did not have close to good seasons last year and 2 rookies that have produced very little.  For WRs currently on the team Renfrow was the only player to break 500 yards last year and Snead and Brown are in the lead with 3 TDs a piece.  I would be willing to bet there are 5-6 rookie WRs that beat 656 yards and 3 TDs.  6 rookie WRs beat the yards last year, 6 rookie WRs beat the TDs, and 5 rookies beat both.  So once again how is it such a far fetched idea that a rookie WR could not come in next year and be our #1 WR.  Carr is also a better QB than all five rookie WRs had.

I get where you're coming from. But we have enough vets and talent in that room that I think we should be okay. Now if in the 3rd/4th round a really good WR drops, I'm all for it. But unless there's some ludicrous talent sitting there at 48, I would rather address other positions.

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I get where you're coming from. But we have enough vets and talent in that room that I think we should be okay. Now if in the 3rd/4th round a really good WR drops, I'm all for it. But unless there's some ludicrous talent sitting there at 48, I would rather address other positions.

That is what I was saying.  Our targets are gone, there is not a good trade down offer, and Marshall is sitting there at 48 I would not be angry if we took him because he would easily be BPA.  I did not say we should target him.  If Nico Collins falls to the 3rd or 4th I probably pull the trigger 

[MrOaktown_56]

Just now, drfrey13 said:

That is what I was saying.  Our targets are gone, there is not a good trade down offer, and Marshall is sitting there at 48 I would not be angry if we took him because he would easily be BPA.  I did not say we should target him.  If Nico Collins falls to the 3rd or 4th I probably pull the trigger 

Yeah I have my eye on Nico Collins. He is a sneaky good player.

I see where you're coming from. If someone really good is on the board, it's hard to be mad in the long run if we take them.

[drfrey13]

1 minute ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Yeah I have my eye on Nico Collins. He is a sneaky good player.

I see where you're coming from. If someone really good is on the board, it's hard to be mad in the long run if we take them.

I think Nico is a better pro than a college player because of the QB play at Michigan and is also why I think Marshall ends up being a better player in the pros.

[MrOaktown_56]

11 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I think Nico is a better pro than a college player because of the QB play at Michigan and is also why I think Marshall ends up being a better player in the pros.

Definitely. We have smaller/faster receivers outside of Edwards so I have my eye on another bigger guy. Both of those guys definitely aren't slow though and could be RZ factors.

[drfrey13]

5 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Definitely. We have smaller/faster receivers outside of Edwards so I have my eye on another bigger guy. Both of those guys definitely aren't slow though and could be RZ factors.

Not saying TW was a world beater but that type of WR is a missing component to our offense.  Having a big wideout that can high point the ball is a must.  If you have to worry about Waller, Moreau (Gruden's fault), Jacobs, and a mismatch WR in the red-zone we would be much more efficient.  

[NYRaider]

21 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Most, or you and some others? Because I certainly did, and I recall more than a few others calling him a potential boom signing. 

He was cut by Philadelphia and signed a 1 yr/$1.5M deal with us. In his last season with Philadelphia he was terrible and he was WR #5 on the depth chart after training camp until Tyrell Williams got hurt. 

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, NYRaider said:

He was cut by Philadelphia and signed a 1 yr/$1.5M deal with us. In his last season with Philadelphia he was terrible and he was WR #5 on the depth chart after training camp until Tyrell Williams got hurt. 

Agholor was a great move but I am not going to count on that happening all the time.