2021 Draft Comparisons

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Perhaps that's true. 

Gaskin
24 BP reps
35.5" Vert 
118" Broad 

Patterson
19 BP reps
30" Vert
117" Broad

 

...but perhaps that's not true. These numbers can't replace what you see on tape, but they sure are indicative of strength and lower body power. We will come to find out. 

Gaskin's numbers are also superior to those of Zack Moss. Are you seriously contending that he has anywhere near the tackle-breaking ability of Moss? Those numbers don't correlate to tackle-breaking ability. Neither measures contact balance. 

[SaveOurSonics]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Are you seriously contending that he has anywhere near the tackle-breaking ability of Moss?

Don't believe I brought up Zack Moss, so that's a strawman if I've ever seen one. 

Considering Moss weighed in at 223lbs, his weight-adjusted numbers are actually better than Gaskin's. Considering Patterson weighed in at 195, his weight-adjusted numbers are actually even worse. Tackle-breaking ability largely comes down to strength and contact balance, the latter of which is a result of lower body strength. 

[jrry32]

25 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Don't believe I brought up Zack Moss, so that's a strawman if I've ever seen one. 

Considering Moss weighed in at 223lbs, his weight-adjusted numbers are actually better than Gaskin's. Considering Patterson weighed in at 195, his weight-adjusted numbers are actually even worse. Tackle-breaking ability largely comes down to strength and contact balance, the latter of which is a result of lower body strength. 

It comes down to more than that, but contact balance is the most significant of the attributes that determine tackle-breaking ability. And it is not mainly a result of lower-body strength. That's simply false.

EDIT: And I'll point out again that the measurables you posted do not measure those things well.

Edited March 26, 2021 by jrry32

[Soko]

58 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Tackle-breaking ability largely comes down to strength and contact balance, the latter of which is a result of lower body strength. 

One of the most wrong things I’ve ever read on this site. Strength is a small factor in balance, but is in no way, shape, or form a good measure of balance (or “contact” balance). 

And on another note, when did vert/broad jump become a measure of lower body strength? 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Yin-Yang

[Turnobili]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

One of the most wrong things I’ve ever read on this site. Strength is a small factor in balance, but is in no way, shape, or form a good measure of balance (or “contact” balance). 

And on another note, when did vert/broad jump become a measure of lower body strength? 

they're measures of explosiveness, not sure if that necessarily means strength

[Soko]

20 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

they're measures of explosiveness, not sure if that necessarily means strength

100%. Even the bench press is a pretty weak measurement for “upper body strength”, but there’s much more of a connection there than broad jump = lower body strength = balance.

[SaveOurSonics]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

One of the most wrong things I’ve ever read on this site. Strength is a small factor in balance, but is in no way, shape, or form a good measure of balance (or “contact” balance). 

And on another note, when did vert/broad jump become a measure of lower body strength? 

It is the most measurable form of contact balance (which I didn't think needed to be said). Unless you have a method for testing ones vestibular system during workouts, what I shared is the closest thing we can get when it comes to nitpicking ones contact balance relative to their level of competition.

Strength is unequivocally a factor in contact balance. It seems as though you're getting far too caught up in the traditional sense of balance, not the practical usage in a football setting. As it relates to improving/maintaining balance, whether traditional or contact, the first thing a healthcare professional will recommend is lower body/core exercises to improve the strength of those areas. 

I'll admit to being confused and potentially mincing my own words when it comes to lower body strength vs explosiveness. Those are nearly synonymous as far as I'm concerned. The vert and broad test = lower body explosion = lower body strength. Happy to hear any clarification on this. Regardless, it doesn't take away from my overarching point. 

 

Is it as simple as lower body strength = balance? Of course not. Like I said, "these numbers can't replace what you see on tape", because there are a variety of factors at play. That said, I'll comfortably standby the notion that those tests measure lower body strength and/or explosiveness (I'll await clarification) which is a measurable variable of contact balance. The bench press is by far the loosest connection to contact balance, but an indicator of strength nonetheless. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by SaveOurSonics

[SaveOurSonics]

10 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

what I shared is the closest thing we can get when it comes to nitpicking ones contact balance relative to their level of competition.

For clarification, I should add that I would never use these numbers in place of watching tape or related metrics. Key part of my posts is the underlined portion above. Between Devonta Freeman, Myles Gaskin, and Jaret Patterson, we are nitpicking relative contact balance. There are a variety of other immeasurable factors that go into this (vestibular, how upright you run, how tight you are, etc.). 

Getting back to the original point, Patterson can get away with his combination of strength+balance in the MAC. I'm not convinced he would still be that same player in the SEC, let alone the NFL. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by SaveOurSonics

[Soko]

42 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

It is the most measurable form of contact balance (which I didn't think needed to be said). Unless you have a method for testing ones vestibular system during workouts, what I shared is the closest thing we can get when it comes to nitpicking ones contact balance relative to their level of competition.

Closest thing we can get = / = accurate. A QB throwing on his pro day is the closest thing we can get to seeing him in live action during the offseason, doesn’t mean it’s a good way to view his ability as a quarterback. 

Quote

Strength is unequivocally a factor in contact balance. It seems as though you're getting far too caught up in the traditional sense of balance, not the practical usage in a football setting. As it relates to improving/maintaining balance, whether traditional or contact, the first thing a healthcare professional will recommend is lower body/core exercises to improve the strength of those areas. 

What a healthcare professional recommends an elderly patient who never followed up with PT after getting a procedure done for their sciatic nerve is vastly different than what we’re talking about here. Doctors recommend that because the average Joe-schmo has underworked legs and a weak core. 

I can squat a house. I can’t (couldn’t) play running back, partially because my balance was pretty bad. If leg strength were the predominant determiner of balance (“contact, football balance”) then there’s no tangible reason why a guy like Deebo Samuel can maintain balance through contact better than most of the running backs in the league. It has much more to do with muscle memory and core strength than it does lower body strength. Hell, basketball players probably are more balanced through contact than any bodybuilder would be.

Quote

I'll admit to being confused and potentially mincing my own words when it comes to lower body strength vs explosiveness. Those are nearly synonymous as far as I'm concerned. The vert and broad test = lower body explosion = lower body strength. I’m Happy to hear any clarification on this. Regardless, it doesn't take away from my overarching point. 

They’re not synonymous. Do you think the elite strongmen can post a 40 inch vertical? Or the elite power lifters? Would you equate Ronaldo’s lower body strength with Ronnie Coleman’s? Absolutely not, but Ronaldo undoubtedly has a much higher vertical.

There’s a massive functional difference in explosiveness and maximal strength (and endurance). 

Quote

Is it as simple as lower body strength = balance? Of course not. Like I said, "these numbers can't replace what you see on tape", because there are a variety of factors at play. That said, I'll comfortably standby the notion that those tests measure lower body strength and/or explosiveness (I'll await clarification) which is a measurable variable of contact balance. The bench press is by far the loosest connection to contact balance, but an indicator of strength nonetheless. 

It’s hardly even an indicator, lol. Who is stronger: a guy who reps 225 for 20 but maxes out at 550, or a guy who reps 225 for 24 but maxes at 425? Why is 225 the benchmark (no pun intended)? Why isn’t it the clean/jerk/******, which is a stronger measure of explosion, core strength, upper body strength, AND balance? I get it, most guys aren’t workout warriors, and that’s okay. But you’re translating some very few, very specific workouts (and again, some measure maxes [vert/broad] and others are a measure of endurance [bench for reps]) and are trying to make extremely broad and general determinations off of that. 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Yin-Yang

[jrry32]

40 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

What I shared is the closest thing we can get when it comes to nitpicking ones contact balance relative to their level of competition.

But it's not remotely close. It's not even helpful. That's why we have eyes. You can disagree with my take on Patterson all you want. That's your business. But throwing a bunch of measurables out that don't relate to that particular skill isn't going to persuade anybody. Might as well just rest on your opinion and call it a day.

[Rich7sena]

Few more and a *revision from my last post.

• Trevor Lawrence -> Justin Herbert
• Justin Fields -> Vince Young
• Trey Lance -> Dak Prescott
• *Terrace Marshall -> DeVante Parker
• Dyami Brown -> Corey Davis
• Amon-Ra St. Brown -> Golden Tate
• Demetric Felton -> Curtis Samuel
• Kylin Hill -> Thomas Jones

Edited March 26, 2021 by Rich7sena

[Scoundrel]

15 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

Few more and a *revision from my last post.

• Trevor Lawrence -> Justin Herbert
• Justin Fields -> Vince Young
• Trey Lance -> Dak Prescott
• *Terrace Marshall -> DeVante Parker
• Dyami Brown -> Corey Davis
• Amon-Ra St. Brown -> Golden Tate
• Demetric Felton -> Curtis Samuel
• Kylin Hill -> Thomas Jones

Davis was 6’2 209 at the combine. He likely has 20 pounds on Brown and Brown is more of a deep threat. 

[Rich7sena]

13 minutes ago, Scoundrel said:

Davis was 6’2 209 at the combine. He likely has 20 pounds on Brown and Brown is more of a deep threat. 

I calls em how I sees em.

[Scoundrel]

8 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

I calls em how I sees em.

Get your vision checked 

[JiffyJag]

Just now, Scoundrel said:

Get your vision checked 

over the past few hours this has gone from a comparisons thread to a roast thread