Winston and Mariota vs Goff and Wentz

[Buc Ball]

24 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Goff and Wentz have already won. Next.

Yip. 

I just have to hope that Winston is more injured than we think (somehow explaining why he’s been so bad the last few weeks) and that that injury is having a severe impact on his accuracy and arm strength.

It’s getting ever closer to the stage where Bucs fans will have to accept that he just doesn’t have it.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

4 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I guess that means we need a 200-page Goff vs. Wentz thread? 

EDIT: Forgot that we have to add Dak to the group.

We have already gone down the Dak vs Wentz debate 100 times over in the Eagles forum... Goff would be a welcome addition.

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

We have already gone down the Dak vs Wentz debate 100 times over in the Eagles forum... Goff would be a welcome addition.

If the OL plays like it did today for the rest of the year, Goff might just win that debate lol. The Giants barely touched him all day.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

If the OL plays like it did today for the rest of the year, Goff might just win that debate lol. The Giants barely touched him all day.

I have seen a lot of Goff as my family is entirely composed of Rams fans. He has been really impressive this season. His raw arm talent is easily the best of three imo. I think he struggles with more basic mistakes than Wentz and Dak though, he seems to have more "what was he thinking" throws than the other two. That likely is because he is still "newer" to starting and was stuck in an awful situation with the coaching staff last season. Still though, he has been really impressive, especially considering how poor he looked last season. His transformation from bust to top 10 QB is something I have never seen before.

Still though, what Wentz is doing in Philly right now is nothing short of special. He is doing everything incredibly well and is making highlight real plays left and right. It is really hard to say who is having a better season. Both of their numbers are very impressive and they both are leading winning teams. I can't really say who is better right now. I would say Carson just has the "it" factor and is a special playmaker, where as Goff's raw talent is clearly special.  If it were to come down to pure numbers at the end of the year, I would say Carson will have more TDs and his 3rd down percentage will be better, but Goff will likely throw for more yards.

As far as Dak goes... he is a great player, but I can't really compare him to the other two until he is asked to be more than a game manager. He has a great skill set, and is a gamer, but to me the way they lean on their run game really so heavily skews my perception as he is the second option in their offense where the other two are taking a more prominent role. Just a hard debate to have when their roles are so much different imo.

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

I have seen a lot of Goff as my family is entirely composed of Rams fans. He has been really impressive this season. His raw arm talent is easily the best of three imo. I think he struggles with more basic mistakes than Wentz and Dak though, he seems to have more "what was he thinking" throws than the other two. That likely is because he is still "newer" to starting and was stuck in an awful situation with the coaching staff last season. Still though, he has been really impressive, especially considering how poor he looked last season. His transformation from bust to top 10 QB is something I have never seen before.

Still though, what Wentz is doing in Philly right now is nothing short of special. He is doing everything incredibly well and is making highlight real plays left and right. It is really hard to say who is having a better season. Both of their numbers are very impressive and they both are leading winning teams. I can't really say who is better right now. I would say Carson just has the "it" factor and is a special playmaker, where as Goff's raw talent is clearly special.  If it were to come down to pure numbers at the end of the year, I would say Carson will have more TDs and his 3rd down percentage will be better, but Goff will likely throw for more yards.

As far as Dak goes... he is a great player, but I can't really compare him to the other two until he is asked to be more than a game manager. He has a great skill set, and is a gamer, but to me the way they lean on their run game really so heavily skews my perception as he is the second option in their offense where the other two are taking a more prominent role. Just a hard debate to have when their roles are so much different imo.

He's still a young QB working out the kinks. He's definitely prone to making a bad decision every now and then. However, his mental acuity is incredibly impressive to me. He's been running our offense at the LOS for much of the past few weeks (we're running more and more no huddle). He also moves through his progressions with impressive speed. I am biased (because I loved him as a draft prospect), but I think he's special. I think Carson is too.

I think Carson is more of an A-Rod type while Goff is more of a Manning type. Obviously, those are lofty comparisons, but I mean more in terms of play style.

I expect Wentz to have the better numbers this year (TDs, yards, etc.). I'm just hoping the Rams can keep ahold of the #1 scoring offense in the NFL and make the playoffs.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

Just now, jrry32 said:

He's still a young QB working out the kinks. He's definitely prone to making a bad decision every now and then. However, his mental acuity is incredibly impressive to me. He's been running our offense at the LOS for much of the past few weeks (we're running more and more no huddle). He also moves through his progressions with impressive speed. I am biased (because I loved him as a draft prospect), but I think he's special. I think Carson is too.

I think Carson is more of an A-Rod type while Goff is more of a Manning type. Obviously, those are lofty comparisons, but I mean more in terms of play style.

I see the A-Rod comparison and I agree, but he really reminds me more of his predecessor Favre. He is more mobile than Favre was, but they both have that playmaker factor that you can't quantify, it just kind of happens. 

But yeah, they are both going to be really good for a long time I think. Idk if they will ever get to the level of 1/2 in the league, but if I had to pick any young QB to lead my franchise for the next 10 years it would be one of those two no doubt.

[lod01]

8 hours ago, Danger said:

Has Jameis actually made any strides forward yet at this point being half way through year 3?

Nope. When you are as dumb as he is, you can't make strides.

Caused the melee that may get Evans suspended a game  He's incredibly stupid.

 

[TitanLegend]

9 hours ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Goff and Wentz have already won. Next.

Each of them have 1 awful season and 1 good(so far) season to their names.

They haven't won anything.

People's love for jumping to conclusions never ceases to amaze me. I remember when Nick Foles and RG3 and Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota and Derek Carr(and so many others) were supposed to be the next big thing at QB in the NFL. I said it was ridiculous each time for each of those QBs then(and have been proven right on each of them), and I'll say it now for Goff and Wentz.

I long for a time where consistency is required out of a player before everyone and their brother proclaims them as the next great thing. This whole "omg they're incredible" after 8 games or even one season when generally the player isn't even near as good as the media and homeristic fans are hyping them up to be(Definitely see Derek Carr last year for that) in the first place is a sad thing.

Hell in a thread on the old forum I got in to a debate with Raider fans(in a thread about Carr and Mariota if I recall right) that neither Carr or Mariota are anything close to elite, but instead called them good/seemingly franchise QBs(still wasn't completely comfortable using that label given how early it is, but I feel like Carr is to the point now that he's consistently producing at roughly the same level, same goes for Mariota), and compared them to guys like McNabb/Gannon/McNair rather than Brady/Rodgers/Manning and they got all in an uproar over it.

I guess it's just not enough to simply be a good player anymore. Everyone has gotta be elite or at least "better than X, Y and Z".

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

45 minutes ago, TitanLegend said:

Each of them have 1 awful season and 1 good(so far) season to their names.

They haven't won anything.

People's love for jumping to conclusions never ceases to amaze me. I remember when Nick Foles and RG3 and Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota and Derek Carr(and so many others) were supposed to be the next big thing at QB in the NFL. I said it was ridiculous each time for each of those QBs then(and have been proven right on each of them), and I'll say it now for Goff and Wentz.

I long for a time where consistency is required out of a player before everyone and their brother proclaims them as the next great thing. This whole "omg they're incredible" after 8 games or even one season when generally the player isn't even near as good as the media and homeristic fans are hyping them up to be(Definitely see Derek Carr last year for that) in the first place is a sad thing.

Hell in a thread on the old forum I got in to a debate with Raider fans(in a thread about Carr and Mariota if I recall right) that neither Carr or Mariota are anything close to elite, but instead called them good/seemingly franchise QBs(still wasn't completely comfortable using that label given how early it is, but I feel like Carr is to the point now that he's consistently producing at roughly the same level, same goes for Mariota), and compared them to guys like McNabb/Gannon/McNair rather than Brady/Rodgers/Manning and they got all in an uproar over it.

I guess it's just not enough to simply be a good player anymore. Everyone has gotta be elite or at least "better than X, Y and Z".

You talk about Consistency like it proves anything other than what I said previously. Mariota has done absolutely nothing consistently well in his career to date. He has had strings of games where he has been good, but the past 8/9 games from Wentz and Goff both eclipse anything Mariota has done in the NFL. The only thing Winston has done consistently to this point  is stay consistently mediocre in every way.

You might be right that Goff and Wentz could come crumbling down next season and people will knock them down a peg, but this debate has nothing to do with consistency as the other two are flat out not as accomplished.

Also, Wentz's rookie year was FAR from awful. It wasn't great, but he played very well in spurts and struggled with some rookie mistakes. He went from number 3 to number 1 on the depth chart a week before the season started and played pretty well for having very poor WRs and missing one of our best players in Lane for 10 games. Goff was pretty horrendous, but has looked like a new player under McVay.

As far as the "elite" remarks, I never called either of them elite, just said they are definitively better than Mariota and Winston, which anyone with eyes can agree with as the latter have been very underwhelming.

[TitanLegend]

11 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

You talk about Consistency like it proves anything other than what I said previously. Mariota has done absolutely nothing consistently well in his career to date. He has had strings of games where he has been good, but the past 8/9 games from Wentz and Goff both eclipse anything Mariota has done in the NFL. The only thing Winston has done consistently to this point  is stay consistently mediocre in every way.

You might be right that Goff and Wentz could come crumbling down next season and people will knock them down a peg, but this debate has nothing to do with consistency as the other two are flat out not as accomplished.

Also, Wentz's rookie year was FAR from awful. It wasn't great, but he played very well in spurts and struggled with some rookie mistakes. He went from number 3 to number 1 on the depth chart a week before the season started and played pretty well for having very poor WRs and missing one of our best players in Lane for 10 games. Goff was pretty horrendous, but has looked like a new player under McVay.

As far as the "elite" remarks, I never called either of them elite, just said they are definitively better than Mariota and Winston, which anyone with eyes can agree with as the latter have been very underwhelming.

That's just not even true. Marcus' QB rating through his first 2 seasons is the 3rd best in NFL history with QBs who qualified in attempts(600+), behind only Marino and Wilson. His 16 games through 2 seasons with multiple touchdown passes is 3rd best in NFL history behind Marino and Carr. His 7 straight games of 2+ td passes last year broke Warren Moon's franchise record. So yeah he's already in the company of Marino and Moon in a few different categories. Which in and of itself doesn't mean as much as it once would because it's a lot easier to throw the ball now than it was back when they were in their primes, but to say Goff and Wentz have done more in 8 games than Mariota has in his career is a hilariously wrong statement. And I'm not even factoring in his rushing statistics, where his 6.1 yards per attempt rushing would rank 3rd in NFL history among all players, behind Vick and Cunningham.

You can make excuses for Wentz all you want last year, but Mariota and Winston on equally as bad if not worse rosters produced better as rookies.

8 game stretches of good play don't really indicate anything. Mariota is not Warren Moon or Dan Marino just because he had a 7 game stretch that produced on a similar level to one of them or had a similar or better first two seasons as them.

Wentz and Goff are playing well this year and that's fine to recognize. Their 8 game stretch is not enough to rank them ahead of any QB who has produced for numerous years though, unless you're solely ranking a "who has been the best in 2017" qb list.

In regards to Winston, his immaturity seriously bothers me, but the guy has the talent and has shown he can be a solid QB in this league. Not sure his mental state will ever let him consistently be that though.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

21 minutes ago, TitanLegend said:

That's just not even true. Marcus' QB rating through his first 2 seasons is the 3rd best in NFL history with QBs who qualified in attempts(600+), behind only Marino and Wilson. His 16 games through 2 seasons with multiple touchdown passes is 3rd best in NFL history behind Marino and Carr. His 7 straight games of 2+ td passes last year broke Warren Moon's franchise record. So yeah he's already in the company of Marino and Moon in a few different categories. Which in and of itself doesn't mean as much as it once would because it's a lot easier to throw the ball now than it was back when they were in their primes, but to say Goff and Wentz have done more in 8 games than Mariota has in his career is a hilariously wrong statement. And I'm not even factoring in his rushing statistics, where his 6.1 yards per attempt rushing would rank 3rd in NFL history among all players, behind Vick and Cunningham.

You can make excuses for Wentz all you want last year, but Mariota and Winston on equally as bad if not worse rosters produced better as rookies.

8 game stretches of good play don't really indicate anything. Mariota is not Warren Moon or Dan Marino just because he had a 7 game stretch that produced on a similar level to one of them or had a similar or better first two seasons as them.

Wentz and Goff are playing well this year and that's fine to recognize. Their 8 game stretch is not enough to rank them ahead of any QB who has produced for numerous years though, unless you're solely ranking a "who has been the best in 2017" qb list.

In regards to Winston, his immaturity seriously bothers me, but the guy has the talent and has shown he can be a solid QB in this league. Not sure his mental state will ever let him consistently be that though.

Here is a fact: Wentz has three less TDs through nine games than Mariota threw all of last year. Here is another fact: Wentz threw for more yards last year than Mariota. Another fact: Wentz has thrown the same number of INTs as Mariota has this season on 90 more attempts while throwing for 17 more TDs. Mariota has NEVER had a single stretch of games that is even comparable to what Wentz and Goff are doing right now. Any stats you want to compare you will fall flat on, because there are none that support your argument.

Wentz wasn't bad last year. I wasn't making an excuse, I was stating facts. He was not a great player, but he was above average for a rookie and a pretty average NFL QB.

Mariota has not "produced for multiple years". He has a single season on the other two in which he played 12 games and didn't eclipse 3000 yards passing. Winston has been even less impressive than Mariota in every aspect of the game. Mariota has played in 34 NFL games. Wentz has played in 25. That is literally less than a full season's worth of football. If you were to compare Wentz's and Mariota's resumes right now, Wentz's is more impressive and it really isn't close. Wentz is leading an NFL best 8-1 team, while throwing for the most TDs in the NFL, and leading the league in 3rd down conversion percentage. Mariota has never had a 9 game stretch where he has accomplished any of the previously stated statistics.

So no, consistency doesn't help your argument and stats don't help your argument. Unless you are really trying to convince that by playing in 9 more games(the same stretch Wentz is currenty on) is somehow some impressive number that says Mariota has shown he is more consistent in his career(this is literally what you are arguing against).

I don't even need to bring up Goff because Winston has been that mediocre in his career thus far that he literally hurts your case.

Give me Goff and Wentz all day, every day of the other two.

[Nzd07]

Bulk stats in a QB argument? That's so 2005.

[TitanLegend]

4 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Here is a fact: Wentz has three less TDs through nine games than Mariota threw all of last year. Here is another fact: Wentz threw for more yards last year than Mariota. Another fact: Wentz has thrown the same number of INTs as Mariota has this season on 90 more attempts while throwing for 17 more TDs. Mariota has NEVER had a single stretch of games that is even comparable to what Wentz and Goff are doing right now. Any stats you want to compare you will fall flat on, because there are none that support your argument.

Wentz wasn't bad last year. I wasn't making an excuse, I was stating facts. He was not a great player, but he was above average for a rookie and a pretty average NFL QB.

Mariota has not "produced for multiple years". He has a single season on the other two in which he played 12 games and didn't eclipse 3000 yards passing. Winston has been even less impressive than Mariota in every aspect of the game. Mariota has played in 34 NFL games. Wentz has played in 25. That is literally less than a full season's worth of football. If you were to compare Wentz's and Mariota's resumes right now, Wentz's is more impressive and it really isn't close. Wentz is leading an NFL best 8-1 team, while throwing for the most TDs in the NFL, and leading the league in 3rd down conversion percentage. Mariota has never had a 9 game stretch where he has accomplished any of the previously stated statistics.

So no, consistency doesn't help your argument and stats don't help your argument. Unless you are really trying to convince that by playing in 9 more games(the same stretch Wentz is currenty on) is somehow some impressive number that says Mariota has shown he is more consistent in his career(this is literally what you are arguing against).

I don't even need to bring up Goff because Winston has been that mediocre in his career thus far that he literally hurts your case.

Give me Goff and Wentz all day, every day of the other two.

Yes, consistency does matter. You're stating Wentz has played in 25 games like he's been the exact same QB in his first 16 like he has been in his last 8, when he hasn't. That's the entire point. From day 1, Mariota was a solid QB. Wentz was mediocre, and that's probably being kind. Mariota has made some improvements since then and has developed in to a decent/good starting QB. Mariota is sitting at 34 games where on a consistent basis he's been solid. Wentz is sitting in a spot where he has 16 games of below average(last year he was not an average QB. An average QB does better than things like 6.2 ypa) play, and 8 games of really good play. That's not consistency. That's the exact opposite of consistency.

Maybe the rest of Wentz's career will look like this 8 game stretch. Maybe he falls off a cliff and never looks this good again. Maybe it's somewhere in the middle of his rookie season and this year. But that's exactly the point, we have no clue. We have no consistency from him to go off of.

I've already disproven the "Mariota has no stretch as good as these 8 games". If you want to use bulk stats to try and quantify it that's fine, but efficiency shows you that Mariota has absolutely played at that level before. It's not his fault he played in an offense last season that poached passing TDs through Murray and Henry taking carries near the goal line or even Mariota running it in.

I don't think you understand what the word consistency means based off of your argument.

[Spartica4Real]

11 hours ago, jrry32 said:

He's still a young QB working out the kinks. He's definitely prone to making a bad decision every now and then. However, his mental acuity is incredibly impressive to me. He's been running our offense at the LOS for much of the past few weeks (we're running more and more no huddle). He also moves through his progressions with impressive speed. I am biased (because I loved him as a draft prospect), but I think he's special. I think Carson is too.

I think Carson is more of an A-Rod type while Goff is more of a Manning type. Obviously, those are lofty comparisons, but I mean more in terms of play style.

I expect Wentz to have the better numbers this year (TDs, yards, etc.). I'm just hoping the Rams can keep ahold of the #1 scoring offense in the NFL and make the playoffs.

It took me a shameful amount of time to realize you weren't talking about Alex Rodriguez.... I was so confused. 

[jsthomp2007]

14 hours ago, JonStark said:

Do you even watch the Rams...? That was a pretty stupid comment. 

LMAO!  Whatever bruh.