2021 Raider Depth Chart

[NYRaider]

3 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

It is not a conspiracy theory.  The starter stops guys all the time because the make a movement that would throw there time off.  He just did not catch Arnette's.  Someone here posted a video once that showed the movement.  Scouts from multiple teams clocked him between 4.3 and 4.7.  All of this points to his time being off.  None of this is to defend his play on the field however.  Just saying that his struggles on the field do not come from his athletic ability which he has plenty off.  Both struggles and athletic ability.

The very few good picks we've made we weren't on the board discussing 40 yard dash trackers being off, that he lost weight, etc. Other than Kolton Miller almost every good pick we've made has either been good as a rookie or at least flashed some high level ability. Arnette is a year younger than Jalen Ramsey and we're saying he's not ready to play, like what? When will he be? When he's 30 at the end of his rookie contract?

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

I have no idea what’s gonna happen with Arnette. I was just saying that last year couldnt have been indicative of the type of player that he’s going to be

How couldn't have been indicative of the type of player that he's going to be? He broke his thumb, had multiple concussions, struggled tackling (because he lost weight), and looked lost in coverage. Could he improve? 100% and I hope that he does but he definitely struggled last season. And the thing that makes it the most concerning is that we reached on a 24 year old CB because he was supposedly "pro ready." Now it's "we signed a veteran because we didn't want him to have to start in year 2 while he adjusts to the NFL." He's 25 years old, 

Arnette is older than Jaire Williams/Denzel Ward, the same age as Marlon Humphrey, and a year younger than Jalen Ramsey. 

[Dessie]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

No I didn't. 

Quote

Ferrell is only 21, has produced at an elite level, has good athleticism, and has the frame/tools you look for in an edge player. Barring injury, he should be a starter here for a long time. We could've taken a "sexier" pick for sure but those guys came with a lot more risk

That’s what you said. 

[Jeremy408]

3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

My beef with Arnette wasn't just getting shrugged off tackles. Dude looked like he was tacking Lennay Kekua out there, eating a faceful of turf, and he was hardly a factor in coverage. 

175 and a broken arm or 190 with both T-Rex'ers working, he was taking horrible angles and blowing coverages. I can forgive a one-armed guy not being as effective at wrapping up as would be ideal, but that wasn't what I saw most of the time. I saw him face planting and leaving guys wide open in the flats and looking about as poised as Leavitt out there. 

I respect the first paragraph for sure. He has not done it yet.

1. But when you mention the part I highlighted, when was he healthy?

2. That’s the type of stuff that happens when…

A. When you have no offseason to learn a defense 

B. You have a coordinator that’s has never been historically known to develop young players outside of one linebacker who is out of the league for being a dirty undisciplined player. A coordinator who by the way how is one of the most complicated defenses in the NFL for no reason and that players who have thrived on other defenses before they got here to play under him have gone on to actually get worse in his defense because of how many different coverages and place they run a game. This is also backed up by the fact that people have gone on record to say how much of a problem this was. 

C. You’re in and out of the lineup because you’re often injured or on the Covid list so you never get a consistent opportunity to actually get reps before or during the season to get acclimated with the system so you actually know what play you’re running on any given down. 
 

it’s not just one of these things it’s all of these things. You do stuff like flop on the ground or read the wrong route when you’re uncomfortable with whites being ran because you don’t know exactly what’s being ran. In other words you’re just overthinking everything. 
 

Now I want to also make sure to out what I’m not saying. I’m not saying that Arnette is guaranteed to pan out. I just want to reiterate what I’ve been saying the whole time which is last year wasn’t indicative of anything in terms of what kind of player Arnette is going to be(good or bad).

Edited August 29, 2021 by Jeremy408

[NYRaider]

3 minutes ago, Dessie said:

That’s what you said. 

You got me, in fairness though he does have about average athleticism, which is why he's an average player. But he doesn't have the freak athleticism that Allen, Burns, and Sweat did. 

[NYRaider]

@drfrey13 sue me for being optimistic, I believed in the scheme bro. 😫

[Jeremy408]

24 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

How couldn't have been indicative of the type of player that he's going to be? He broke his thumb, had multiple concussions, struggled tackling (because he lost weight), and looked lost in coverage. Could he improve? 100% and I hope that he does but he definitely struggled last season. And the thing that makes it the most concerning is that we reached on a 24 year old CB because he was supposedly "pro ready." Now it's "we signed a veteran because we didn't want him to have to start in year 2 while he adjusts to the NFL." He's 25 years old, 

Arnette is older than Jaire Williams/Denzel Ward, the same age as Marlon Humphrey, and a year younger than Jalen Ramsey. 

With the whole age thing I actually have no argument with that. In terms of the coverage and the tackling it's not about the what it's about the why: 

With The tackling: I explained why already 

With the coverage: That’s the type of stuff that happens when…

A. When you have no offseason to learn a defense 
 

B. You have a coordinator that’s has never been historically known to develop young players outside of one linebacker who is out of the league for being a dirty undisciplined player. A coordinator who by the way how is one of the most complicated defenses in the NFL for no reason and that players who have thrived on other defenses before they got here to play under him have gone on to actually get worse in his defense because of how many different coverages and place they run a game. This is also backed up by the fact that people have gone on record to say how much of a problem this was. 

C. You’re in and out of the lineup because you’re often injured or on the Covid list so you never get a consistent opportunity to actually get reps before or during the season to get acclimated with the system so you actually know what play you’re running on any given down. 
 

it’s not just one of these things it’s all of these things. You do stuff like flop on the ground or read the wrong route when you’re uncomfortable with whites being ran because you don’t know exactly what’s being ran. In other words you’re just overthinking everything(I know because I played corner for most of my life)
 

Now I want to also make sure to out what I’m not saying. I’m not saying that Arnette is guaranteed to pan out. I just want to reiterate what I’ve been saying the whole time which is last year wasn’t indicative of anything in terms of what kind of player Arnette is going to be(good or bad).

Edited August 29, 2021 by Jeremy408

[Darbsk]

35 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

What exactly was our scheme? To generate pressure once in a blue moon and kinda stop the run?

Oh, I agree. We were sold a dud in Paul Guenther and his 'scheme'. Dreadful, absolutely dreadful appointment that's set us back two maybe three years. I'm cautiously optimistic regarding Bradley but having gotten our toes burnt last time I want to see the real improvement in game situations.

We seemed to actively go out of our way to acquire players like Ferrell, Arnette, Abrams that supposedly suited PG and his 'scheme' and that is the danger with that philosophy, if the DC is good you're OK if he is a fraud then you're set back twice as long as you have a bunch of players hand picked that probably are not the best overall guys you could have gotten.

[Jeremy408]

34 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

What exactly was our scheme? To generate pressure once in a blue moon and kinda stop the run?

This is what I'm saying. I'm not even sure if Paul Gunther knew what he wanted to run. 

He got the scheme from Mike Zimmer who run the multiple defense. Coordinators that run the multiple defense by themselves and being able to run any coverage on any given given situation and also being able to stop the run and rush the passer however they need to get it done. Because of having to do so many things and have so many plays it's common for people who run the multiple defense to want players that played a lot of football in college or players that are veterans in the NFL who have been in a lot of different systems and played a lot of football so that they can digest the playbook. 

Historically Mike Zimmer like big defensive ends like michael Johnson carlos dunlap and robert geathers. While having more undersize defensive tackles on the inside to rush the passer like geno Atkins tom johnson shareef floyd. This is probably where Paul Gunther got this from the only problem is Paul Gunther didn't create the system he wasn't responsible for drafting the players so he didnt actually know what to look for. Even if he did he has no track record of coaching anyone younger than 24 before coming to Oakland and all of the players that I mentioned were already in place before he took over for Mike Zimmer in the first place

Can you look at some of the moves they made like drafting Ferrell who was easily the most fitting of the description of what dissembled Carlos doing the Michael Johnson and robert geathers just like drafting players like Maurice Hurst and pj hall resembled what he was looking for and Geno Atkins.

The problem was he didn't create the defense so he doesn't actually know what to look for. Hence all the waisted draft picks on defense specifically. 

Another thing to take into account is that on the bengals Gunther apprised himself on how he was able to "develop" Vontez burfict which is why they often passed on linebackers both in free agency or the draft until 2020 when I heard that Gruden wanted littleton and paul gunther didnt. Kwiat however was clearly more of a Paul Gunther style player. 

[NYRaider]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

This is what I'm saying. I'm not even sure if Paul Gunther knew what he wanted to run. 

I think the biggest issue with Guenther was that he was never really a good coach, he just inherited a really talented defense and piggy backed off of what Mike Zimmer and Marvin Lewis had built already. Zimmer has had good defenses as a coordinator in Dallas/Cincinnati and as a head coach in Minnesota. Marvin Lewis had good defenses as a coordinator in Baltimore and then as a head coach in Cincinnati. 

In Zimmer's last year Cincinnati was 3rd in yards allowed and 5th in points allowed. In the following season with Guenther as the defensive coordinator they fell to 22nd in yards allowed and 12th in points allowed with essentially the exact same players.    

One of the most alarming things in all of this is that Gruden/Mayock had so much faith in Guenther and his scheme that we were allowing him to essentially draft the guys he wanted. For someone like Gus Bradley who built one of the best defenses in NFL history and has had good defenses everywhere he has been, I think you definitely give him the benefit of the doubt and his input should play a major part in who we draft. 

[NYRaider]

26 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

We seemed to actively go out of our way to acquire players like Ferrell, Arnette, Abrams that supposedly suited PG and his 'scheme' and that is the danger with that philosophy, if the DC is good you're OK if he is a fraud then you're set back twice as long as you have a bunch of players hand picked that probably are not the best overall guys you could have gotten.

And to me that is also very telling about Mike Mayock/Jon Gruden as personnel decision makers. I understand to a degree that you want to get guys that fit what you're trying to do. But at the end of the day talent is what wins football games and good coaches adjust their schemes to suit the strengths of their best players. I still have some faith that Arnette and Abram can be at least solid starters but that Ferrell pick, especially when Devin White, Ed Oliver, Brian Burns, Josh Allen, and Montez Sweat were on the board, was a very bad decision. 

[Jeremy408]

19 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I think the biggest issue with Guenther was that he was never really a good coach, he just inherited a really talented defense and piggy backed off of what Mike Zimmer and Marvin Lewis had built already. Zimmer has had good defenses as a coordinator in Dallas/Cincinnati and as a head coach in Minnesota. Marvin Lewis had good defenses as a coordinator in Baltimore and then as a head coach in Cincinnati. 

In Zimmer's last year Cincinnati was 3rd in yards allowed and 5th in points allowed. In the following season with Guenther as the defensive coordinator they fell to 22nd in yards allowed and 12th in points allowed with essentially the exact same players.    

One of the most alarming things in all of this is that Gruden/Mayock had so much faith in Guenther and his scheme that we were allowing him to essentially draft the guys he wanted. For someone like Gus Bradley who built one of the best defenses in NFL history and has had good defenses everywhere he has been, I think you definitely give him the benefit of the doubt and his input should play a major part in who we draft. 

That's what I'm saying! That's not like a small thing that someone has never been good at what they do with giving so many resources. That's not an excuse that's a fact and valid reason why things have been the way they have been in all things defense regardless of how much someone was paid or where someone was drafted.

You can look it up for yourself. All Gunther has never had a starter on defense that was younger than 24 which means besides Damon Arnette age situation he's never had first or second year players starting on any defense where he was the defensive coordinator for he got to the raiders. That should tell anyone about his ability to coach and develop young players out of college. 

The thing I've been saying since I started actually participating in discussion on this form is that the main thing that Gruden will have to answer for in this stint as a head coach is why he stuck with Paul Gunther for so long and invested all the resources including the fourth overall pit of 2019 on a coordinator that has no experience of developing or even knowing how to pick talent to add to his defense. 

Think about how much faster the defense looks after they not so coincidentally change defensive coordinators. All of a sudden all the linebackers are former safeties that run 4.4 the free safety and nickel are both ballhawks both of the starting defensive and I both guys with the bend and athleticism. I think that happened because in year five the lightbulb just came on for the front office? Or because they have a new defensive coordinator who values those things and has a defense in which

1. he knows exactly what he wants

2. has had success in general but specifically in terms of developing young players

3. Has a system that is simple and emphasizes speed

[NYRaider]

9 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

The thing I've been saying since I started actually participating in discussion on this form is that the main thing that Gruden will have to answer for in this stint as a head coach is why he stuck with Paul Gunther for so long and invested all the resources including the fourth overall pit of 2019 on a coordinator that has no experience of developing or even knowing how to pick talent to add to his defense. 

Think about how much faster the defense looks after they not so coincidentally change defensive coordinators. All of a sudden all the linebackers are former safeties that run 4.4 the free safety and nickel are both ballhawks both of the starting defensive and I both guys with the bend and athleticism. I think that happened because in year five the lightbulb just came on for the front office? Or because they have a new defensive coordinator who values those things and has a defense in which

1. he knows exactly what he wants

2. has had success in general but specifically in terms of developing young players

3. Has a system that is simple and emphasizes speed

Agreed. Bradley/Guenther are on the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of building a defense from the ground up. Guenther inherited a very good veteran group when he took over for the Bengals, Bradly inherited a bad group that needed to be rebuilt. During his time as the Seahawks defensive coordinator they drafted Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, KJ Wright, Malcolm Smith, Bruce Irvin, Bobby Wagner, and Earl Thomas. The year before he took over in Seattle they were 25th in yards allowed and 30th in points allowed. In year 3 they were a top 10 defense and in his 4th and final season they allowed the fewest points in the NFL. 

 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

Agreed. Bradley/Guenther are on the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of building a defense from the ground up. Guenther inherited a very good veteran group when he took over for the Bengals, Bradly inherited a bad group that needed to be rebuilt. During his time as the Seahawks defensive coordinator they drafted Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, KJ Wright, Malcolm Smith, Bruce Irvin, Bobby Wagner, and Earl Thomas. The year before he took over in Seattle they were 25th in yards allowed and 30th in points allowed. In year 3 they were a top 10 defense and in his 4th and final season they allowed the fewest points in the NFL. 

 

That's all I've been trying to say this whole time it what happens with the underperforming players both draft and free agency look like with a coordinator that's actually competent and has a history of being competent on his own with no help from the former defensive coordinator or head coach. 

[MrOaktown_56]

I thought Guenther would be good in 2018. That was one of my worst whiffs ever.