If the Packers struggle without Rodgers, is it an indictment on Ted Thompson?

[Kenrik]

Yes a 3rd round for Kelvin. His contract goes though 2018. Seems like there is talk about taking a WR in the 2nd or 3rd anyways. Jordy and Kelvins contract would end at the same time. Cut Cobb.

[spilltray]

Wait a minute, so Schneider is being praised for this? The OL has more or less been a dumpster fire for a while, he happens to address one of the 5 positions and he's being aggressive and pro active? No he waited until it was obvious the ol was so putrid it's going to hold you back and then made a move. They should have been in panic mode 2-3 seasons now.

[Norm]

10 hours ago, ReadyToThump said:

You never really regret holding onto players with Collins caliber of athleticism/talent is what strat was saying... especially if you compare that trait of his to the other's we ultimately failed on. 

And guys like McMillian were great athletes from small schools too and then didn't "git gud" so TT is killed for keeping them. Nick is only "well duh you keep him!" because he "got gud." It's the truth. PLENTY of people wanted Nick benched and swore he had bricks for brains and it was time to move on for what felt like 3+ years.

[Norm]

3 hours ago, spilltray said:

Wait a minute, so Schneider is being praised for this? The OL has more or less been a dumpster fire for a while, he happens to address one of the 5 positions and he's being aggressive and pro active? No he waited until it was obvious the ol was so putrid it's going to hold you back and then made a move. They should have been in panic mode 2-3 seasons now.

People are starved for what they can't have. We can't have trades so any time someone does one, it's a great idea.

I know a GB fan who complained about Richard Rodgers like 3000000000000 times a week about how slow he was. Then when NE traded for Dwayne 5.0 40 Allen he lost his ******* mind that we didn't make moves like that. It doesn't matter what the trade is or addresses, it's the fact "Trades are cool" and we don't do them. It's that simple.

[MacReady]

Yeah, anybody who was here around Nick's time knows that people CONSTANTLY had to defend that pick.  People had to bring up the fact that the Ravens called us upset that we took him, and people STILL ripped into that pick.  I remember because there was a play Collins made against the Bears in the 4-12 season that was one of the most exciting plays I'd seen all year because of how bad we were that year, and it was only like a 6 yard loss, but Collins was there in a second. 

[Packer_ESP]

4 hours ago, spilltray said:

Wait a minute, so Schneider is being praised for this? The OL has more or less been a dumpster fire for a while, he happens to address one of the 5 positions and he's being aggressive and pro active? No he waited until it was obvious the ol was so putrid it's going to hold you back and then made a move. They should have been in panic mode 2-3 seasons now.

Or maybe fixing holes in the NFL really is that hard and that's why we've had holes at S and TE for a while. Both avenues to hole fixing require not only doing your job well (evaluating talent) but also external circumstances (FAs being available and not getting better offers elsewhere, draft value being adequate, etc.) Then you add injuries to all of that and yeah, it can take a while.

[MacReady]

There's a lot of things people just don't take into consideration when it comes to trades.  If anybody thinks the Panthers would trade Benjamin to an in-conference rival, they're fools.  Is it any wonder why Ajayi, Benjamin, Watkins, Brown, Garoppolo have all been traded to different conferences?  Then there's the fact that teams don't want to piss off their former players, so in most cases they try to make sure a player wants to go where they're sending them.  Patriots probably could have gotten a better pick if they traded Jimmy to the Browns.  You think Jimmy wanted that?  No, so he got traded to the Niners, which is a dream destination for a QB.  The three trades that didn't happen that we know about?  Randy Moss didn't want to play here (he said we were insisting that Driver was the "star," and what we said to him rubbed him the wrong way).  The Seahawks outbid us on Marshawn.  In hindsight, Marshawn was a good player, but a *****y teammate.  I don't know how that image of him laughing after the Wilson interception in the Super Bowl wasn't a bigger thing. 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ma8jr

There are things as a fan I wouldn't accept no matter the talent level, and laughing/reacting like that after a Super Bowl loss is one of them. 

Then there was the Tony Gonzalez trade.  It was a done deal, then the Chiefs ****ed us. 

I do think that we put too much faith in young players.  Our corners were crap last year and that was evident before the trade deadline.  I'm sure there were some corners available.  We had Aaron Rodgers.  There were veterans available via trade and free agency.  I can understand being loyal to your own players and wanting to maintain that next man up mentality, but when your #1 corner gets hurt for the year, it's not a slap in the face to an undrafted rookie free agent with serious athletic limitations to sign or trade for a starting caliber corner veteran. 

[ReadyToThump]

7 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Purely running numbers, McMillian and Collins are very close athletically. Not saying that you're wrong, but this isn't so cut and dry. 

McMillian was a damn good athlete, too, and iirc was a solid ST player. But how long did we keep him? His rookie year and part of his 2nd year?

[Norm]

14 minutes ago, ReadyToThump said:

McMillian was a damn good athlete, too, and iirc was a solid ST player. But how long did we keep him? His rookie year and part of his 2nd year?

Exactly. Yet people talk like we played him and MDJ for 5 seasons.

[ThatJerkDave]

8 hours ago, MantyWrestler said:

I think this probably fits here. Would it be a good move for Ted Thompson to have traded for Kelvin Benjamin? We may have an extra third round pick and always end up with at least one seventh in the draft. Is he a player who could help this receiving corps and would you have paid a 3 and 7 for him?

also, a 4th for Ajayi, would you?  Do we have the players on our roster after Jones? 

Benjamin is set to make $8.5 million next season on his 5th year option, or needs to be extended.  Jordy Nelson has a cap hit of $12.5 million (2.3 if you get rid of him), and Cobb has a cap hit of 12.7 million (3.2 if you get rid of him) AND they'll want to re-sign Davante Adams.  That is a lot of money for WRs.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/kelvin-benjamin-14437/

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/jordy-nelson-4999/

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/randall-cobb-7783/

 

And we would be trying this when Rodgers is out for the season?

[Packer_ESP]

46 minutes ago, DavidatMIZZOU said:

Benjamin is set to make $8.5 million next season on his 5th year option, or needs to be extended.  Jordy Nelson has a cap hit of $12.5 million (2.3 if you get rid of him), and Cobb has a cap hit of 12.7 million (3.2 if you get rid of him) AND they'll want to re-sign Davante Adams.  That is a lot of money for WRs.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/kelvin-benjamin-14437/

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/jordy-nelson-4999/

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/randall-cobb-7783/

 

And we would be trying this when Rodgers is out for the season?

Not just that, but I don't know if he's a good fit with Rodgers. I haven't watched him extensively but from what I know about him he's more of a contested ball guy, outsizing CBs, which I don't think goes well with #12. I just did a quick search and our qualifying WRs and TEs are all above him in average separation at the catch.

According to PlayerProfiler (is this web legit? never heard of it before)

• Martellus Bennet 1.42 yards, #17
• Geronimo Allison 1.68 yards, #22
• Jordy Nelson 1.63 yards, #29
• Davante Adams 1.58 yards, #33
• Randall Cobb 1.46 yards, #48
• Kelvin Benjamin 1.31 yards, #67

I don't know if this is more on Cam, on the Panthers offense or on Benjamin himself, but I thought I'd share it anyway.

[CWood21]

17 hours ago, th87 said:

?

Nick Collins showed flashes in year 1, took a step back in year 2, but closed out strong, and a budding star after.

This also happened during rebuilding years (Sherman's GTFO season and year 1 of MM). 

M.D. Jennings never really showed flashes, and played extensively in years we were contenders. 

The situations are in no way comparable, and would have warranted completely different approaches. 

Admittedly my memory is incredibly hazy, but IIRC he got beaten badly for most of his first three years.  Maybe it was just being tough critics, but it really wasn't until Year 4 that the Packers knew they had something in him.  Paired with a strong 2009 and 2010 season and the future was incredibly bright on him.  The point I was trying to illustrate was that if you yank a player to early, and they go on to have a good career elsewhere then you hear that the player didn't get an opportunity to play in Green Bay, and if they play too long than they held onto the player for far too long.  It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[CWood21]

11 hours ago, MantyWrestler said:

I think this probably fits here. Would it be a good move for Ted Thompson to have traded for Kelvin Benjamin? We may have an extra third round pick and always end up with at least one seventh in the draft. Is he a player who could help this receiving corps and would you have paid a 3 and 7 for him?

also, a 4th for Ajayi, would you?  Do we have the players on our roster after Jones? 

LOL no.  Sorry, I don't mean to be patronizing but there's no reason the Packers should be investing anything even semi-valuable into a WR whose contract expires within the next year and a half.  Does Kelvin Benjamin crack our top 3 WRs this year?  Probably not.  So why would you give up a semi-valuable pick to bury someone on the bench, especially with Rodgers on the shelf.  Makes no sense.

Given Jay Ajayi's injury history, probably not.  After how Aaron Jones has played thus far?  Absolutely not.

[TransientTexan]

4 hours ago, NormSizedMidget said:

Exactly. Yet people talk like we played him and MDJ for 5 seasons.

Yea the bellyaching over MDJ doesn't make much sense. he was playing for only 1-1/2 yr. And it would've been only 1 yr if Woodson hadn't broken his collarbone in 2012. While Jennings was a starter in 2013, they understood he had some limitations and he generally only played about 70% of the snaps, splitting time w/ McMillian and Richardson. GB basically rolled the dice in 2013 for one of those 3 guys to develop, but it never happened. The next year, they got HHCD. 

As for safety in general, I think the previous shortcomings are exaggerated. Peprah wasn't a probowler, but he was never intended to be a starter. He filled in for injured Burnett in 2010 and injured Collins in 2011, and the 2010 defense was still great in spite of his presence. 

There seems to be some delusion on expectations for NFL backups. The majority of the time, they are not good players (by starting standards), and only meant to play special teams and get you through a couple games if injuries hit. Yea, sometimes teams have a good backup here and there (Bishop,Tretter,A.Jones,etc.), but they're just not going to have that at all 22 spots with realities of the salary cap. People could make similar depth complaints about any team if they followed them as closely as they do their favorite team.  
 

[TheOnlyThing]

4 hours ago, ReadyToThump said:

McMillian was a damn good athlete, too, and iirc was a solid ST player. But how long did we keep him? His rookie year and part of his 2nd year?

My gosh there are still people defending McMillian?

He was let go during the middle of his second season in favor of the horrible M.D. Jennings because he was historically bad. 

And McMillian was let go just 6 months after Ted Thompson gave him his personal vote of confidence by declaring "I'm confident in those young men (in reference to McMillian & Jennings)" when explaining why he ignored the safety position in the 2013 draft. He was that awful.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000165055/article/green-bay-packers-ignore-safeties-in-2013-nfl-draft  

The decision to select McMillian in the 4th round in 2012 was a mistake. The decision to count on him to play significant snaps at safety in 2013 was an even bigger mistake.

"A personnel director for an NFL team said Jack Cosgrove, the longtime coach of the Black Bears, told him that Trevor Coston, Maine's other senior safety, was as good as McMillian. Coston signed as a free agent with Chicago and was cut, then went to camp with Detroit this year and was cut again.

Nolan Nawrocki, the hard-working, plugged-in draft analyst for Pro Football Weekly, ranked McMillian in a three-way tie for 27th place among safeties and graded him as a priority free agent.

In the month leading up to the draft, I asked 20 personnel men with national orientation to rank their favorite safeties on a 1-2-3-4-5 basis. The class of 2011 safeties was regarded as the worst in two decades, and the '12 batch was weak as well.

The votes were all over the landscape, and 19 different safeties gained at least one vote.

Nobody even mentioned McMillian".

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-jerron-mcmillian-was-wrong-pick-from-beginning-b99157863z1-234923911.html/