2021 Week Three GDT Steelers vs the Bengals!

[43M]

4 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

The reality is that he is an aging QB. I don't think he is just going through the motions. He would have simply left as Pouncey and DeCastro did. 

Because players have never come back for just a paycheck, right?

I dont presume to know Ben's reasons for coming back.   Wish I did.

And DeCastro was cut.   He didnt retire.  Not yet anyway.

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The problem that I have with this argument is that you can't look at Ben both ways. Since, he is a 39 year old trying not to get killed behind a patchwork OL, get him help. He is not the issue there. It is the patchwork OL. As an old guy myself, I am not scared, but wise enough to pick my battles. 💪 The team needs Big Ben to win consistently this year. Whether that happens is to be determined. You need other ingredients to look good when you are 39, have taken a beating, and your supporting cast isn't the best. Replace Ben with Mason and you just have a younger guy getting his butt kicked. 

Im not going to respond to everything you typed because I dont have time (typing from my phone), but its fine because this paragraph essentially summarizes why I believe youre missing the point.

You claim that Ben cant do it himself with the current supporting cast....but that's pretty much the entire point.   Even if he does still have the ability to win (which is highly debatable), the team isnt currently designed to support Ben in his current declining, 39 yr old state.    We knew before the draft we were losing pretty much our entire OLine.   Why even come back?   Why subject yourself to having to adapt to a new offense (which he doesn't seem fond of) and break in a new offensive line that could honestly take several years?   

So, while Ben isnt THE issue, he inarguably is AN issue.    Yes, any other QB we put in is going to get beat up to and likely not have much more success, but Id rather see that than watch 39 yr old Ben continuously running for his life, throw lame ducks downfield and pout about the offense.

Ben is just one of the spinning tires taking us nowhere, and sorry...thats not going to change.

[43M]

1 hour ago, Steeler Hitman said:

Disagree with that part. It just hasn't seemed that way to me. Yes it is easy to calmly sit and pick apart plays in slow motion. The OL is THE BIG PROBLEM in my opinion. 

Youre acting like both cant be true, and thats a completely false narrative.

Yes, the OL is a huge problem.   Not one person has denied that.

That doesn't mean Ben isnt a big issue too.   He is.   He has been declining for years, even before his elbow surgery and his line imploded.    

Behind this line, he is a huge liability.   He doesn't move as well in the pocket, he has always been pretty average reading defenses, he is playing scared like he did in 2008 ( yes, we won the SB that year, but Ben struggled mightily, and was only 26 then) and he isnt really buying into the offense.

Bottom line....Ben is likely going to start the entire season unless he is injured, so it doesnt really matter what we say.   But the offense is going to remain largely anemic aside from maybe a couple fluke games against bad defenses...and even if the OLine is a big reason for that, so is Ben.   All the bad OLine does is highlight Ben's shortcomings.

[CKSteeler]

Roethlisberger was hit on over a quarter of his drop backs against the Raiders and kept standing in the pocket. I don't know where anyone would see he was playing scared. I'd like one example of where he gave up on a play out of fear of getting hit or even rushed a throw. Because I saw a guy who was trying to fight through pressure and still throwing down field and still looking down field. Perhaps looking down field too much because there were plays to be made underneath against the looks the Raiders were giving them.

That last part is what concerns me most about that game. The Raiders gave the Steelers space to throw underneath and take small chunks of yardage, but for whatever reason they decided to force other things. They aren't going to get much more favorable looks from a defense than what the Raiders gave them. At least not until they decide to start using the entire field in the passing game.

I'd rather trot Mason Rudolph out there than sign Cam Newton. That people actually think Cam Newton at this stage offers more than Roethlisberger is mind boggling to me.

[warfelg]

Ben has publicly asked for Friermuth to get more snaps and chances. Guess we’ll she’s who really calls the shots Sunday. Or y’all will. Ryder cup is on. 

[jebrick]

https://www.audacy.com/937thefan/sports/pittsburgh-steelers/former-steeler-its-a-big-deal-o-line-didnt-help-ben-up

Good article on the oline and Ben

[Steeler Hitman]

17 hours ago, 43M said:

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You're acting like both cant be true, and that's a completely false narrative.

I never said that Ben has played perfect. I said that he is not the ROOT CAUSE of the offenses struggles. He does have a hand in it. I think you, I, and others may all disagree on what percentage of that Ben owns. 

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Yes, the OL is a huge problem.   Not one person has denied that.

I am not only saying the OL is a huge problem right now, I am saying it is the ROOT CAUSE/MAIN REASON of many of the offenses woes. 

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That doesn't mean Ben isn't a big issue too.   He is.   He has been declining for years, even before his elbow surgery and his line imploded. 

I am also not denying that Ben is not an issue.  I don't necessarily see the same decline in skills. I attribute much of it to loss of the elite talent. His play, the offense in general began to decline when they lost two other key components Lev Bell and Antonio Brown. I think Bell should have stayed and I think unfortunately AB had to go! If AB stays, I believe he retires the second best WR behind one GOAT Jerry Rice. I think he was that good. I think Bell may be considered as a fringe HOF'er if he stays. Ben admitted he's played in pain for years. I just don't think you can discount losing that level of talent and not being able to maintain that same standard of excellence. Ben was more the reason the team went 11-0 than not. He was also a major reason they went 1-5 down the stretch. My point, no one else to support him or give him confidence. I don't think that happens if two vets like AB and Bell are on the roster. Everyone in Pittsburgh lost when they left.  Bell got what he wanted, but did he want what he got?  AB got a ring, but probably lost a football legacy! Was it worth it? Big Ben lost opportunities as he has aged. The focus and expectations of Ben's play have changed. He needs help>

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Behind this line, he is a huge liability.

Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen or even Lamar Jackson would be  a liability with no blocking. They could have pockets of success based on mobility, but all QB's hate pressure and getting hit. You say what a relentless pass rush did to even Mahomes against the Bucs. Regardless of how complicated, complex, and new age, the game is still basically blocking and tackling. Protect the franchise QB.

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He doesn't move as well in the pocket, he has always been pretty average reading defenses, he is playing scared like he did in 2008 ( yes, we won the SB that year, but Ben struggled mightily, and was only 26 then) and he isn't really buying into the offense.

I have never seen Ben "play scared!"  That borders on telling a man to grow a pair. I am critical of a lot of things with Ben over his career and time as a Steeler, but his heart has never been one of them. What he endured against the Raiders was not a scared QB. He could have simply tapped out. He is not built like that.  He may not be buying into the offense, but it is still only week three. Success breeds confidence.  We heard the same thing last year about TB12 in Tampa Bay through the first 8 weeks or so.  In 2008 and 2021 what are the common factors? Bad offensive lines. I actually have not classified this line as a finished product like 2008 as all of the key cogs are not in place. I think Banner helps Najee Harris become a better weapon running the ball and moving Chuks to LT or signing a veteran can secure the LT position. Keep your QB healthy and he can make plays. 

Bottom line....Ben is likely going to start the entire season unless he is injured, so it doesn't really matter what we say.   But the offense is going to remain largely anemic aside from maybe a couple fluke games against bad defenses...and even if the OLine is a big reason for that, so is Ben.   All the bad OLine does is highlight Ben's shortcomings.

A bad offensive line is going to make any QB less effective. As great as Mahomes is in the same situation as the Steelers and Ben (playing without the starting RT & LT) your OL is in shambles. Mahomes and the offense struggled against a team that they waxed earlier in the year. Different team, game, and probably outcome if you can protect arguable the best QB in the entire NFL. 

14 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

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Roethlisberger was hit on over a quarter of his drop backs against the Raiders and kept standing in the pocket. I don't know where anyone would see he was playing scared. I'd like one example of where he gave up on a play out of fear of getting hit or even rushed a throw. Because I saw a guy who was trying to fight through pressure and still throwing down field and still looking down field. Perhaps looking down field too much because there were plays to be made underneath against the looks the Raiders were giving them.

I agree. Facts!!! And that's not just because I agree with your position on this subject. I have never seen Ben "play scared!" 

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That last part is what concerns me most about that game. The Raiders gave the Steelers space to throw underneath and take small chunks of yardage, but for whatever reason they decided to force other things.

I would say a lot has to do with trying to do things in a new offense, not being comfortable with it, and not adjusting to take what an opponent gives you, not what is scripted or planned. 

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They aren't going to get much more favorable looks from a defense than what the Raiders gave them. At least not until they decide to start using the entire field in the passing game.

I think a lot of that comes with getting comfortable with the offense and being able to have some offensive wins. Confidence comes from success. You can't gain confidence if you are under duress and having to pick yourself up after several passes. At 39, you can't take the same beating you did at 26. 

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I'd rather trot Mason Rudolph out there than sign Cam Newton. That people actually think Cam Newton at this stage offers more than Roethlisberger is mind boggling to me.

I am not sure if they actually believe that or think that because Cam is big and mobile, he would have more success. Again, duress affects any QB. The major reason that the Steelers struggled against the Patriots is that they were rarely able to put Brady under duress. I keep pointing to the 2015 Broncos as a blueprint for the 2021 Steelers. I think Cam was MVP that year and he struggled against Denver because of the pass rush! He was even more mobile, agile, and hostile then. The OL has to get fixed, and it won't begin to be where it should until the starters are in place and playing their proper positions. It doesn't matter who you put out there with poor blocking and pass protection, they are going to be limited and stymied. 

 

5 hours ago, warfelg said:

Ben has publicly asked for Freiermuth to get more snaps and chances. Guess we’ll see who's really calling the shots Sunday. Or y’all will. Ryder cup is on. 

It's Yinz! 😁

4 hours ago, jebrick said:

https://www.audacy.com/937thefan/sports/pittsburgh-steelers/former-steeler-its-a-big-deal-o-line-didnt-help-ben-up

Good article on the oline and Ben

I read (corrected) a similar article yesterday from Zach Banner. My take on this is it is motivation to try to get the unit to jell. I applaud Zach Banner for stepping into a leadership role despite not being on the field.  Ryan Clark is now in the media and understands some things as a former player and Steeler. Hopefully Zack's return will further boost the OL. While It is great to help your QB and each other up, it is far better to keep your QB upright and help your opponent up because you knocked him on his @rse!  It is more gracious to give a knockdown that receiveth. Thus sayeth the football gods of trenches. 💪

Edited September 23, 2021 by Steeler Hitman
Correction

[3rivers]

this team will need a few more weeks to get going, get their identity on offence etc. Turner is a solid OL and can get the run game going. Defence...needs to get healthy more than anything.  Be patient, this team will look much better after mid season, not sure if it will be too late though, and then consider the schedule.  

It could be another season where the team rallies too late, misses the playoffs but should be in according to last half of season play.  

[MOSteelers56]

11 hours ago, 3rivers said:

this team will need a few more weeks to get going, get their identity on offence etc. Turner is a solid OL and can get the run game going. Defence...needs to get healthy more than anything.  Be patient, this team will look much better after mid season, not sure if it will be too late though, and then consider the schedule.  

It could be another season where the team rallies too late, misses the playoffs but should be in according to last half of season play.  

I agree with you on this one. We've got too many young guys to have jumped out to a fast start. We need to avoid injuries and give the team time to gel. The first part of that is already looking like a pipe dream.

[Dcash4]

PFF has major flaws (like, anything to do with coverage....) but I do think that OL grading is one of the better, or at least more understandable, metrics. 

I was surprised to see Dan Moore rate as our "best" OL through two games. He has been shaky, but that's nice to see he hasn't fallen flat. 

For anyone curious:

Moore: 67.8
Dotson: 57.2
Green: 59.2
Turner: 59.3
Chuks: 62.4

I said it in the other game day thread, but Dotson has been extremely disappointing to this point. I think we all thought he would be the guy to stand up. Watching the game back and focusing on the OLine, I feel confident he didn't have a good film session on Monday. 

[VigilantZombie]

I want to believe we will win this game. I don't believe that however.

[Steeler Hitman]

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

PFF has major flaws (like, anything to do with coverage....) but I do think that OL grading is one of the better, or at least more understandable, metrics. 

I like what PFF has tried to build, but I have little regard for how the rate and evaluate. I don't give some of them much more credit than some of the computer tecno, nerdy, geeks who rate players for Madden. I honestly feel like they do and say some things for shock value rather than honesty and true substance.  shock value and drama seem to get you more these days than integrity and honesty in reporting/evaluating. 

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I was surprised to see Dan Moore rate as our "best" OL through two games. He has been shaky, but that's nice to see he hasn't fallen flat. 

Would you say that was accurate? This is the issue that I have with PFF, it seems like the criteria changes. Last year Dotson could do no wrong.  I am sure there is a huge difference playing beside a guy playing in his first and second NFL game at new position than having Pouncey and Big Al  each side of you rather than first year players Green and Moore. 

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

For anyone curious:

Moore: 67.8
Dotson: 57.2
Green: 59.2
Turner: 59.3
Chuks: 62.4

That is bordering on what many call Fake News in my eyes. C'mon man! I know that the Raiders IDL was much more dominant than I thought they would be.  Solomon Thomas wrecked havoc last Sunday. However, Moore the best and Dotson the worst? The tackle positions play has been the best according to PFF! 💩💩💩  (feel free to insert bull in front). 🤬I am not saying that the IOL play has been steller, but I don't see or agree with those rankings at all.

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I said it in the other game day thread, but Dotson has been extremely disappointing to this point. I think we all thought he would be the guy to stand up. Watching the game back and focusing on the OLine, I feel confident he didn't have a good film session on Monday. 

It is hard for me to expect dominance from one player who is surrounded by inconsistent players. I am more disappointed that Dotson has not emerged as the LEADER on the OL. Zach Banner is at least more vocal on the sidelines about issues. etc. No one on that OL is getting an A or B. Honestly or a solid C really. But a lot of that has to do with cohesion. OL is not like receiver where if you drop a ball everyone sees it. Missed calls and  poor communication can create poor timing and bad angles for blocking.  Dotson and the entire OL gets Incomplete grade from me at this point because they don't have all of their components. When Banner is back at RT, miraculously Trai Turner is going to look better. Lo and behold Green is going to be coming around and Chuks will continue his already Steller play at LT because he is more comfortable and surpass Moore's highmark given by PFF. 🙄 

 

1 hour ago, wwhickok said:

I want to believe we will win this game. I don't believe that however.

Losing stinks. Losing ugly is sickening. It can leave a pit in your stomach. Football is an emotional game and at times our emotions can get the best of us. With the Steelers it's always........"It's a thin line between winning and losing! do do!"  (singing in my Persuader's voice).

 

 

The Bengals are improved and certainly do not fear the Steelers. I think they (Bengals) will play hard and competitive. I am only giving the Steelers the edge because I don't believe they are quite as bad as they have played offensively. They are at home for the second straight week.. There are several Steelers who are looking to rebound and get some pay-back from that embarrassing beating in Ciny last December. I predict that Ben and Ju Ju will both try to bring their A games. The pride factor and the fact, I hardly think that this wants to drop two home games in a row (three counting last years Browns play-off thrashing).  I think the Steelers win a close one. 

[VigilantZombie]

Believe me too I'm not going into this game all doom and gloom, it'd great that we will likely have our key defensive players back, but unless our OL seriously improves, I'm struggling to find a lot of confidence and I went into this season thinking 13-4 and possible trip to the SB

[Steeler Hitman]

1 minute ago, wwhickok said:

Believe me too I'm not going into this game all doom and gloom, it'd great that we will likely have our key defensive players back, but unless our OL seriously improves, I'm struggling to find a lot of confidence and I went into this season thinking 13-4 and possible trip to the SB

I try to be a realist. You really never know. I think this team is a few healthy players away. They still beat a very good Bills team and lost to a very good Raiders team. Honestly, they were in both games despite the offensive woes and injuries. I was not 13-4 optimistic just because of how this team yo yo's. My hope was that they finally reverse the December thing of the past three years (losing late). You need to be playing your best football late. This team hasn't played their best football for several seasons. I mean games where they play good offense, defense and special teams together. At times this team can't get out of its own way. Most of the time!

[Dcash4]

24 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I like what PFF has tried to build, but I have little regard for how the rate and evaluate.

They are just trying to turn everything into easily digestible metrics for comparison. The problem is, that without some form of context being added to the math, it doesnt work. Like in coverage, if the corner is man to man against a receivers and the CB falls down and the nearest defender is a S who was in the middle of the field....that S is likely to get dinged if he was the "closest" defender despite it not being his responsibility. Coverage stats also don't give you the benefit of doing your job well, unless the ball is thrown at you. 

Offensive line is a little more cut and dry. Did you get beat by the man your blocking? It's a bit more of a pass/fail assessment. They are not perfect by any means, but I do think blocking grades are more realistic. 

35 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

Would you say that was accurate?

In terms of Dan's play. I don't know....could be? He seems to have highs and lows. I haven't watched enough of the OLine to try to grade against each other. But I also don't think he is getting his butt kicked all day long on the edge. 

36 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

That is bordering on what many call Fake News in my eyes. C'mon man! I know that the Raiders IDL was much more dominant than I thought they would be.  Solomon Thomas wrecked havoc last Sunday. However, Moore the best and Dotson the worst? The tackle positions play has been the best according to PFF! 💩💩💩  (feel free to insert bull in front). 🤬I am not saying that the IOL play has been steller, but I don't see or agree with those rankings at all.

Im not sure why you think its fake news. Our run blocking has been trash and Ben got hit 10 times last week, a lot from interior pressures. I'm not sure that deserves a lot of passing grades. 

In terms of Dotson, I do agree with the grades at this point. Like I said, from watching last week it was eye opening to me how bad he was. I expected a lot more. He was easily getting beat by his man, showed no strength when pulling, and couldn't get to his spot, was winded, or just didn't care on a screen play. 

Through 2 games, it doesn't really matter who is beside him -- he is getting his butt handed to him 1 on 1. I am hoping he kicks it back into gear this week. 

Went back and watched the first half before hitting send: yes, I feel very confident that if someone told me Dotson was our worst OL so far that I couldn't put together enough good tape to tell prove that's incorrect. IMO, it looks like he cannot move. That feels new, so I am kinda hoping its a health thing he can work through. 

[cjfollett]

My hope is the Steelers OL will improve as the season progresses, and the team will eke out enough wins to stay in the hunt through their struggles.

I was more optimistic before watching the regular season games. The O looks mostly terrible -- much the same as they did to end last season. The D looked fantastic with all the starters, but not so great without a few of them. That's probably true of every team, but if the O cannot move the ball and score, it's going to be brutal.

Cinci is a bit of a benchmark game. If the Steelers cannot win this game, they are likely looking at 2-4 or 1-5 at the bye at best. A win Sunday, and they can hope for 3-3 or 4-2.