Talent or Scheme on Defense?

[spilltray]

The last thing I want to see is Capers fired and the staff kept in tact. I just don't see why Moss and White and Perry get so much love. 

 

I don't think the problem is talent.

 

It's not scheme either. Not in the sense that different plays would help.

 

The problem is it doesn't matter year 1 or year 4, DBs make the same kind of coverage mistakes or someone crashes the wrong gap and there is a huge hole that if the offense can present the same problem, they just keep failing. I think the problem is the position coaches.

[Dubz41]

It's Capers. He's lost touch. OCs around the league destroy him on a consistant basis.

Paraphrased from MJS Silverstein:

GREEN BAY – If you had foreseen nose tackle Kenny Clark becoming one of the most productive players on defense, inside linebacker Blake Martinez ranking seventh in the NFL in tackles and rookie cornerback Kevin King giving up just one touchdown in the first seven games, you probably would have predicted the Green Bay Packers' defense finally would have turned the corner by now.

But here it is, approaching the midway point of the season, and nothing has changed with defensive coordinator Dom Capers’ unit.

It is woefully lacking in pass rush, it can’t get off the field on third down, it can’t stop anybody in the red zone and its run defense is ranked in the bottom quarter of the league.

This is the most talent and depth Capers and his defensive staff have had since 2014 at the very least, and possibly since 2010 when the Packers won Super Bowl XLV. Yet for all the strong individual performances the defense has gotten, the cumulative effort has been sorely lacking.

Barring any injury decimation akin to what has occurred on the offensive line, this season is a referendum on whether Capers and his staff can deliver a winning defense.

Hundley might get better as the season goes on, but there has been considerable investment in the defense the past four seasons and that is where the most improvement should be taking place.

Yet the first half of the season has been marked by such things as having 10 players on the field in critical situations, defensive backs lining up in the wrong position or unclear on what their assignment should be, poor containment or missed tackles and the wrong decision on who should wear the radio helmet in the absence of Burnett (not Ha Ha Clinton-Dix).

Where is the chemistry this group should have been developing during the offseason and training camp? There have been several players making positive contributions yet the Packers' rankings in many key statistical categories are abysmal:

» 25th in sacks per pass attempt (5.29)

» 30th in red-zone touchdown percentage (73.68)

» 24th in third-down success rate (41.86)

» Tied for 32nd in most 20-yard rushes allowed (nine)

» Tied for 26th in most rushing touchdowns allowed (seven)

» 19th in opponent passer rating (90.2)

» 22nd in tackles for loss (34)

» Tied for 28th in quarterback knockdowns, including sacks (33)

» Tied for 17th in interceptions (six)

It’s easy to criticize Matthews for having only 2 ½ sacks, but he leads the team in quarterback hits with five, is second in quarterback pressures with six and is second in tackles for loss with three. Linebacker Nick Perry has only 3 ½ sacks and two quarterback hits, but he is tied for the team lead in pressures with seven.

Why their sack totals aren’t higher is something Capers and his staff must figure out. If they’re getting there a tick too late, then the coaches should figure out how they can create sacks with pressure elsewhere.

Clark is giving the Packers so much more than Letroy Guion ever did that it’s amazing the sack total isn’t higher. The second-year pro is tied with Perry for the lead in pressures, which is remarkable for a nose tackle, but his running mate, Mike Daniels, has gone four straight games without a sack.

The playing-with-youth excuse no longer applies. King and fellow rookie Josh Jones have had to play a lot, but they are not being relied upon to be saviors. They should be complementing what is becoming a fairly experienced group.

Of the 11 starting positions in the most-often used “nitro” package, only one is held by a rookie (King) and only four are held by players with fewer than two full years of experience. Some of the backups include Brooks, Quinton Dial and Ricky Jean Francois, all of whom are in their fifth year or beyond.

Injuries have been a factor, but not overwhelmingly. A total of five starters have missed a total of nine games, which is more than manageable, especially when you consider what the offensive line has had to overcome.

[Spartacus]

Give me the all of the above answer.

The defense has some talented pieces but I wouldn't say we really have a huge strength that we can rely on. The same way injuries affecting one position group can make a defense really weak a position group of great strength can make a defense seem better than the talent actually is. Our talent both seems to be lacking and sporadic in its strengths. Dline is probably our greatest strength but we only play 2 at any given time and Clark is more of an elite run defender while Daniels is more of an elite pass rusher. The LBs have Perry who I think would be elite if he was placed with someone who commanded more respect opposite of him. Mathews is just average as a pass rusher. ILB are just average to below average. Corners there is not a single plus in the entire group. House can't stay healthy, King Randall and Rollins can all be thrown on. The safeties are good when healthy but I wouldn't call them an elite group. 

That said there is also enough talent on this defense to be better than the results show. Time and again are situational defenses are horrendous. I wish someone could collect the stats of our defense over the last 5 or so years in the two minute drill or game winning situations. I assume they are not pretty. 

 

I'm not generally a "FIRE SOMEONE" type of guy but I think new blood both at the DC and assistants needs to be looked into. I also think its about time for TT to hang em up as well.

[RoellPreston88]

The defense is too bad to be just one or the other. It's definitely both, but I'd say 60 scheme/40 players. 

Even the most ardent TT supporter has to admit his forte isn't drafting defense. 

Whats frustrating is seeing defenders go elsewhere and have productive careers after busting here (Jerel Worthy for example). Thats what makes me think its more scheme/coaching than talent. 

Another reason I think its more coaching/scheme is that guys have good rookie years, then seem to struggle thereafter.

[Kenrik]

11 minutes ago, RoellPreston88 said:

The defense is too bad to be just one or the other. It's definitely both, but I'd say 60 scheme/40 players. 

Even the most ardent TT supporter has to admit his forte isn't drafting defense. 

Whats frustrating is seeing defenders go elsewhere and have productive careers after busting here (Jerel Worthy for example). Thats what makes me think its more scheme/coaching than talent. 

Another reason I think its more coaching/scheme is that guys have good rookie years, then seem to struggle thereafter.

Jerel Worthy is being productive?

[Packerraymond]

1 hour ago, spilltray said:

The last thing I want to see is Capers fired and the staff kept in tact. I just don't see why Moss and White and Perry get so much love. 

 

I don't think the problem is talent.

 

It's not scheme either. Not in the sense that different plays would help.

 

The problem is it doesn't matter year 1 or year 4, DBs make the same kind of coverage mistakes or someone crashes the wrong gap and there is a huge hole that if the offense can present the same problem, they just keep failing. I think the problem is the position coaches.

Because there's continual development of players. Look at what Moss has done with Perry, Martinez, Ryan and Trg with Daniels/Clark. Secondary hasn't been as good as of late, but what Whitt did with Tramon, Shields, Hayward, Hyde etc... can't be ignored. Randall and Rollins are on Ted IMO for drafting a CB with such slow foot speed in Rollins and such a fragile mind like Randall who I'm not sure can even be criticized by Whitt without snapping. 

I'm still placing most of the blame on Ted IMO, last year this was probably the most unathletic defense in the league. King/House/Jones fix a little bit but there still isn't a LB on this team better than league average. Still only have Daniels among the DL group that gives you anything as a pass rusher. At the beginning of his tenure he was giving Dom exactly what he needed (Raji, CMIII, Hayward, Daniels, Bishop, Burnett, Perry) from 2013 to 2015 he went downhill in a big way. Hopefully Clark, Martinez, King and Jones is a sign of him turning it around.

[Pugger]

1 hour ago, Spartacus said:

Give me the all of the above answer.

The defense has some talented pieces but I wouldn't say we really have a huge strength that we can rely on. The same way injuries affecting one position group can make a defense really weak a position group of great strength can make a defense seem better than the talent actually is. Our talent both seems to be lacking and sporadic in its strengths. Dline is probably our greatest strength but we only play 2 at any given time and Clark is more of an elite run defender while Daniels is more of an elite pass rusher. The LBs have Perry who I think would be elite if he was placed with someone who commanded more respect opposite of him. Mathews is just average as a pass rusher. ILB are just average to below average. Corners there is not a single plus in the entire group. House can't stay healthy, King Randall and Rollins can all be thrown on. The safeties are good when healthy but I wouldn't call them an elite group. 

That said there is also enough talent on this defense to be better than the results show. Time and again are situational defenses are horrendous. I wish someone could collect the stats of our defense over the last 5 or so years in the two minute drill or game winning situations. I assume they are not pretty. 

 

I'm not generally a "FIRE SOMEONE" type of guy but I think new blood both at the DC and assistants needs to be looked into. I also think its about time for TT to hang em up as well.

I'm more than ready for Capers to "retire" but I'm not as down on TT as some are here.  Some grouse about our poor D but is it the DC or the GM?  I suspect is it the former.

[RoellPreston88]

6 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Because there's continual development of players. Look at what Moss has done with Perry, Martinez, Ryan and Trg with Daniels/Clark. Secondary hasn't been as good as of late, but what Whitt did with Tramon, Shields, Hayward, Hyde etc... can't be ignored. Randall and Rollins are on Ted IMO for drafting a CB with such slow foot speed in Rollins and such a fragile mind like Randall who I'm not sure can even be criticized by Whitt without snapping. 

I'm still placing most of the blame on Ted IMO, last year this was probably the most unathletic defense in the league. King/House/Jones fix a little bit but there still isn't a LB on this team better than league average. Still only have Daniels among the DL group that gives you anything as a pass rusher. At the beginning of his tenure he was giving Dom exactly what he needed (Raji, CMIII, Hayward, Daniels, Bishop, Burnett, Perry) from 2013 to 2015 he went downhill in a big way. Hopefully Clark, Martinez, King and Jones is a sign of him turning it around.

Ted has an infatuation with guys like him - scrappy, under achiever types 

[Packerraymond]

Also, new defensive assistants would be the responsibility of Mac to hire. I have zero faith he could do better than what we have. Offensively I think he's well connected in the league, but I'm not confident in him defensively.

I have way more faith in him knowing who on our staff already is capable of being a DC and replacing his position spot than him having to hire a whole new defensive staff.

[squire12]

Not sure that MM would be the one hiring the position coaches.   It would make sense for Capers and Moss to have a hand in the hiring/firing of those position coaches for the defensive side of things.  Moss is the Associate Head Coach.  Not really sure what that actually means.

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, squire12 said:

Not sure that MM would be the one hiring the position coaches.   It would make sense for Capers and Moss to have a hand in the hiring/firing of those position coaches for the defensive side of things.  Moss is the Associate Head Coach.  Not really sure what that actually means.

It'd likely be on the new DC to hire the positional coaches if the Packers would go down that route.

[Dubz41]

1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

Because there's continual development of players. Look at what Moss has done with Perry, Martinez, Ryan and Trg with Daniels/Clark. Secondary hasn't been as good as of late, but what Whitt did with Tramon, Shields, Hayward, Hyde etc... can't be ignored. Randall and Rollins are on Ted IMO for drafting a CB with such slow foot speed in Rollins and such a fragile mind like Randall who I'm not sure can even be criticized by Whitt without snapping. 

I'm still placing most of the blame on Ted IMO, last year this was probably the most unathletic defense in the league. King/House/Jones fix a little bit but there still isn't a LB on this team better than league average. Still only have Daniels among the DL group that gives you anything as a pass rusher. At the beginning of his tenure he was giving Dom exactly what he needed (Raji, CMIII, Hayward, Daniels, Bishop, Burnett, Perry) from 2013 to 2015 he went downhill in a big way. Hopefully Clark, Martinez, King and Jones is a sign of him turning it around.

Your continual defense of Capers is unnerving (for lack of a better word).  He has repeated his historical track record of initial success followed by a constant decline EVERYWHERE he has coached.  Funny how you want to blame TT for Capers story here in GB.  Capers has been getting outcoached consistently for the last 6 years.  It's why we can't get off the field on third downs.  Make all your excuses you want, Dom is failing.  Our defense has no heart and that is directly from coaching.  History is repeating itself in the Capers Universe.

[CWood21]

6 minutes ago, Dubz41 said:

Your continual defense of Capers is unnerving (for lack of a better word).  He has repeated his historical track record of initial success followed by a constant decline EVERYWHERE he has coached.  Funny how you want to blame TT for Capers story here in GB.  Capers has been getting outcoached consistently for the last 6 years.  It's why we can't get off the field on third downs.  Make all your excuses you want, Dom is failing.  Our defense has no heart and that is directly from coaching.  History is repeating itself in the Capers Universe.

Why must it be one reason or another?  Can it not be a combination of both?  LIS before, there's players who clearly failed because of a missed evaluation (Quentin Rollins, Jerel Worthy, Datone Jones, etc.) and guys who didn't get developed properly (Jason Spriggs, Khyri Thornton, Mike Neal, etc.).  I think it's a fool's errand to blame one person or the other, and rather look at a combination of everything.  But at this point, going to the most extreme measure to fix the issue (firing TT) doesn't really fix the issue, it just exacerbates that issue.

[MantyWrestler]

1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

Also, new defensive assistants would be the responsibility of Mac to hire. I have zero faith he could do better than what we have. Offensively I think he's well connected in the league, but I'm not confident in him defensively.

I have way more faith in him knowing who on our staff already is capable of being a DC and replacing his position spot than him having to hire a whole new defensive staff.

 No it would be on McCarthy to hire the defensive coordinator and the coordinator to hire his assistance. 

[RoellPreston88]

One could argue not firing Capers long ago  is a fireable offense for both TT and MM