Talent or Scheme on Defense?

[MacReady]

Just now, RoellPreston88 said:

One could argue not firing Capers long ago  is a fireable offense for both TT and MM

Disagree.  The defense was not bad in 2015, it was not bad in 2014.  2016 they had every reason to buy into the excuse of too many injuries at corner.  2013 was when he should have been fired as a statement for that Niners game.  No way should that have gone unaddressed, but Capers did have a bounce back season the following year.  2014 was a special teams issue, 2015 was a bad play by either Randall or Peppers in overtime.  Otherwise, both those defenses played well in the playoffs when it matters most. 

[Packerraymond]

2 hours ago, MantyWrestler said:

 No it would be on McCarthy to hire the defensive coordinator and the coordinator to hire his assistance. 

Trg, Moss and Whitt are McCarthy guys, only Perry and Kevin Greene ever had connections to Dom.

Most teams block lateral moves, therefore when you pull a DC from another team there's not a lot of guys he can bring with them.

[Dubz41]

3 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Why must it be one reason or another?  Can it not be a combination of both?  LIS before, there's players who clearly failed because of a missed evaluation (Quentin Rollins, Jerel Worthy, Datone Jones, etc.) and guys who didn't get developed properly (Jason Spriggs, Khyri Thornton, Mike Neal, etc.).  I think it's a fool's errand to blame one person or the other, and rather look at a combination of everything.  But at this point, going to the most extreme measure to fix the issue (firing TT) doesn't really fix the issue, it just exacerbates that issue.

Sorry, I'll clear it up.  It's ALWAYS a combination of things- always.  In this case I used history repeating itself.  I believe we've had the talent all along.  There will be draft bust along the way because there always is, every team experiences them, but other teams don't keep around coaches who have coached long enough to have a historical pattern.  There has been plenty of 'draft capital' expended on defense.  There have been plenty of apologists who will say how Dom needs vets to run his complex schemes. I respond to that by saying just look at his history.  It is time for him to go. His defense is SOFT and non aggressive.  Last game they were also LOST on the field.  Those things point directly at the Coordinator.  After Capers is gone, then it's TT's time to go.  One step at a time, but Capers is the first step.

[MantyWrestler]

4 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

Trg, Moss and Whitt are McCarthy guys, only Perry and Kevin Greene ever had connections to Dom.

Most teams block lateral moves, therefore when you pull a DC from another team there's not a lot of guys he can bring with them.

That may be true but if you hire a new DC don’t my you feel you should let him hire coaches who can help him implement it?

[packfanfb]

"When you realize you have to play in old man Capers' defense."

[CWood21]

8 hours ago, Dubz41 said:

After Capers is gone, then it's TT's time to go.  One step at a time, but Capers is the first step.

And this train of thought is something I can support.  But the whole "lets fire everyone" mob mentality doesn't achieve anything but create more chaos.

[RoellPreston88]

In Capers defense, the Packers' 6 CBs include 3 undrafted free agents and street free agent. 

[Stevein2012]

18 hours ago, RoellPreston88 said:

In Capers defense, the Packers' 6 CBs include 3 undrafted free agents and street free agent. 

Well the free agent was a Packers 4th round pick and the undrafted players have combined for like 200 snaps.  Besides those guys are a couple 1st round picks and a 2nd, that's probably more (draft capital wise) than most teams have to work with.

[Pugger]

On 11/2/2017 at 3:48 PM, Dubz41 said:

Sorry, I'll clear it up.  It's ALWAYS a combination of things- always.  In this case I used history repeating itself.  I believe we've had the talent all along.  There will be draft bust along the way because there always is, every team experiences them, but other teams don't keep around coaches who have coached long enough to have a historical pattern.  There has been plenty of 'draft capital' expended on defense.  There have been plenty of apologists who will say how Dom needs vets to run his complex schemes. I respond to that by saying just look at his history.  It is time for him to go. His defense is SOFT and non aggressive.  Last game they were also LOST on the field.  Those things point directly at the Coordinator.  After Capers is gone, then it's TT's time to go.  One step at a time, but Capers is the first step.

You are going to find a lot of us these days who will say that Capers should "retire" after this season but I don't know if we need Ted to go too.  He has spent a lot of 'draft capital' on the defense since 2012 without a lot of discernible improvement.  IMO that lies at the feet of Dom and his assistants, not necessarily the GM.

[RashaanSalaami]

At this point, I think you have to call it scheme. You see corners coming in and lining up late. Players often used out of position for sake of disguising defense. As a result, you see blown coverages, players thinking too much about their responsibility rather than being confident in it and playing fast after the snap. This defense is tough to watch year after year.

[CWood21]

On 11/2/2017 at 2:48 PM, Dubz41 said:

Sorry, I'll clear it up.  It's ALWAYS a combination of things- always.  In this case I used history repeating itself.  I believe we've had the talent all along.  There will be draft bust along the way because there always is, every team experiences them, but other teams don't keep around coaches who have coached long enough to have a historical pattern.  There has been plenty of 'draft capital' expended on defense.  There have been plenty of apologists who will say how Dom needs vets to run his complex schemes. I respond to that by saying just look at his history.  It is time for him to go. His defense is SOFT and non aggressive.  Last game they were also LOST on the field.  Those things point directly at the Coordinator.  After Capers is gone, then it's TT's time to go.  One step at a time, but Capers is the first step.

That's why it's so hard to discern whether or not it's the evaluation process or the coaching.  They're essentially tied at the hip, and saying that it's definitively one or the other.  But as I've mentioned, if you're firing TT and going in a different direction, that likely puts a situation where that new GM likely wants to bring in their own head coach, who would in turn bring their new DC.  Are you willing to not only risk that changing offensive schemes at this point in Rodgers' career does more harm than any potential DC change could bring?  Quite frankly, I'm not.  I'd rather do the less extreme move and move on from Dom Capers, letting someone else take over.  As for who, that's a matter of question.  But if you want to go outside the organization, you better be willing to understand that new DC will likely what their own positional coaches.  That means no more Joe Whitt Jr., Darren Perry, Mike Trgovac, and and Jerry Montgomery.

[spilltray]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

That's why it's so hard to discern whether or not it's the evaluation process or the coaching.  They're essentially tied at the hip, and saying that it's definitively one or the other.  But as I've mentioned, if you're firing TT and going in a different direction, that likely puts a situation where that new GM likely wants to bring in their own head coach, who would in turn bring their new DC.  Are you willing to not only risk that changing offensive schemes at this point in Rodgers' career does more harm than any potential DC change could bring?  Quite frankly, I'm not.  I'd rather do the less extreme move and move on from Dom Capers, letting someone else take over.  As for who, that's a matter of question.  But if you want to go outside the organization, you better be willing to understand that new DC will likely what their own positional coaches.  That means no more Joe Whitt Jr., Darren Perry, Mike Trgovac, and and Jerry Montgomery.

Given the amount of "miscommunication" and blown assignments, if you are going to replace Capers, I'd prefer to wipe the whole defensive staff anyway. They just aren't getting guys on the same page and I don't think that comes as much from the scheme at the top as the individual coaching.

[fattlipp]

HZ,  man you watch Zach Brown today, wouldn't he have looked good here?

[Dubz41]

Not that this is the norm or anything, but Goff and the Rams were kind of a joke last year.  Totally new coaching staff and they are rocking it on BOTH sides of the ball.  Replacing a staff does not mean a step backward. Just saying.

[MacReady]

12 hours ago, fattlipp said:

HZ,  man you watch Zach Brown today, wouldn't he have looked good here?

I don't know what this is.  Is this taunting me because I thought it was a bad idea to sign him?  I said it before and I'll say it again, any player who plays on three teams in three years isn't that great somehow, some way.  Taunting me is pretty childish on the issue especially considering if we would have signed Brown, Martinez wouldn't have been the starter, and Martinez wouldn't have had this second year leap.  If I'm misinterpreting this... My bad, but pretty ridiculous to say this when Martinez is having the best ILB season since Clay Matthews for us and the best ILB season in a long, long time and if we signed Brown he wouldn't have.

But sure... You got me?  His 1.5 more sacks, 10 more tackles and 2 less passes defended in one more game is so much wildly better than Blake's that I must eat a huge plate full of crow?  His one year, 2.5 million dollar contract is so much better than Blake's .64 million dollar contract?  Inside linebacker is the position that's holding this defense back this year?  When Washington doesn't re-sign Cousins and when they don't re-sign Brown and when Brown plays for a fourth team in four years and when I don't want us to sign him that year, you go ahead and bring him up again.