Week 12: Jets vs Texans

[Bobby816]

My thoughts are... based on play, there's no reason Wilson should be starting. But fact is, is that we made a huge investment in him and we aren't a win now team. So his string is longer.

Where it gets more complicated is... he should only be getting snaps to get experience and developing. He's getting experience, but he certainly isn't improving. You could argue that him going out there and playing like trash is worse for him than getting experience. Bad experience can set bad habits. And it's hard to tell if that's what's going on. But he certainly has no positive consistency to his game.

We will be forced to watch him the rest of this season. And I don't expect much from him in that time. Where there's no positivity thinking he's going to be good for us going into next year. The positive is that we will have lots of draft picks and 60mill in cap space to help him out more. On both sides of the ball. We knew this rebuild wasn't going to be a year or 2. Yes we expected better play from him. But it is what it is. Hopefully learning what not to do this year, better talent and another year of being a NFL player can help him.

 

But yes... right now White, Johnson, Flacco are all vastly better than Wilson.

But he wont be benched. Unless he starts throwing 2-3+ INTs weekly.

[doumeyer]

57 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

My thoughts are... based on play, there's no reason Wilson should be starting. But fact is, is that we made a huge investment in him and we aren't a win now team. So his string is longer.

Where it gets more complicated is... he should only be getting snaps to get experience and developing. He's getting experience, but he certainly isn't improving. You could argue that him going out there and playing like trash is worse for him than getting experience. Bad experience can set bad habits. And it's hard to tell if that's what's going on. But he certainly has no positive consistency to his game.

We will be forced to watch him the rest of this season. And I don't expect much from him in that time. Where there's no positivity thinking he's going to be good for us going into next year. The positive is that we will have lots of draft picks and 60mill in cap space to help him out more. On both sides of the ball. We knew this rebuild wasn't going to be a year or 2. Yes we expected better play from him. But it is what it is. Hopefully learning what not to do this year, better talent and another year of being a NFL player can help him.

 

But yes... right now White, Johnson, Flacco are all vastly better than Wilson.

But he wont be benched. Unless he starts throwing 2-3+ INTs weekly.

From what i saw Sunday it is hard to argue your point. He looked real bad, so far he has no scope of the field.

Edited November 30, 2021 by doumeyer
another point

[KingOfNewYork]

23 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

And that’s where us criticizing him have legit points. For me…. There’s actually been no good.

Then you aren’t watching 

[NYJets4716]

On 11/29/2021 at 12:14 PM, ekill08x said:

Not true. Zach tucked the ball and as if to take off and run so of course Ty turned around he was trying to go block. Was just a dumb play to try and make there. 

Yes it is true, watch the stills, when Wilson pitched it Ty was still facing him.   Wilson needs to learn to just run at times. 

When Josh Allen was struggling throwing as a rookie he would help himself by using his legs.  

Right now Wilson isn't even playing like he did in college, he isn't confident, he is thinking too much, doesn't look fluid, and holds onto the ball too long at time. He should have thrown a TD in the redzone, instead he takes a sack. Not only was Moore running open, but the RB on the wheel route was uncovered.   

The offensive scheme is actually pretty good. 

[Bobby816]

1 hour ago, KingOfNewYork said:

Then you aren’t watching 

What has he done good? I’ve seen maybe a handful of throws from him that look great. When you throw the ball over 200 times… to only have a few good throws is awful. You could do that.

[TheChad]

18 hours ago, jetfuel34 said:

I have been pretty busy these last few days so I started to get caught back up on the comments on the Texans game. Here are my thoughts

1. Looks like more and more people are final starting to see that Zach Wilson is not a starting QB in this league. He has shown ZERO progress. How the heck can you start the lowest level of any QB coming out and have zero improvements. You would think just getting lucky once would happen. PLEASE stop with the "Well P. Manning started off bad too." You are talking 20 plus years ago and the game has changed A LOT in that time. The game is easier for QB's now with all the PI that are given out and then add that you really don't get hit like you use to 20 years ago and not get a flag. The fast we move on from Wilson the better.

2. This game should show everyone that Mike White should be the starting QB and Josh Johnson as his back up. Mike White had 1 bad game against the top D in the league by far. 

3. Saleh should be fired after this year and go after Joe Brady or Kellen Moore. I prefer Kellen Moore because he has seen more than Brady has. 

4. WE NEED A KICKER!!!!!! We have needed a kicker since Myers left years ago. If I was a GM that had a very young team and is in rebuild mode you would want a great kicker to keep you in the games. Heck maybe even win some. You are most likely going to being kicking FG instead of getting TD's. 

5. This team is going no where near the playoffs until they get a QB. I would be going all in on Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson. I would not draft a QB for a few years and leave Wilson on the bench for next year. If Wilson still shows no signs by the end of next year I would put him on the trade block and try to get a 2nd round pick for him. The next move would be to draft a QB in 2023 draft. This way you have one of the big studs for a year and then teach the rookie the following year because Rodgers and Wilson only have 2-3 years left in them. 

6. The DL is looking better but they are not in the upper level of the league but they should be there with all that talent. 

7. Please don't start with the. "I want to lose all these games to get a better draft pick." We have to get win no matter what. The draft pick thing is BS. That has done NOTHING for this team but brought on more problems.

Very much agree on point 4 about the kicker. Letting Meyers go after a 33/36 season for no reason was such a bad decision by Mac. It gets hidden because of a bunch of other terrible decisions, but it's straight up cost us points almost every game since.

 

I'm in the camp of Mike White starting is a better idea than Wilson. If he poops the bed again against lesser defenses than the Bills then go to Flacco and look to get better competition for Zach next year. Until Zach earns the starting job (which may be never), he shouldn't have it. He needs to be shown that he has to improve his play in order to get to play on Sundays. I like winning. I'm tired of having the worst (or close to it) record in the league over the last however-many years.

 

As for Saleh and the defense though, I don't think we should be too hasty. I'm trying not to be too swayed by Saleh just being a likeable guy (from interviews / press conferences), but I do think that ownership needs to give him a real chance and not make him feel like he's on the hot seat immediately. We saw LaFleur make big improvements after being god-awful. And in that situation we saw that maybe a ton of it was on the players (well, player). Saleh has gotten good production from an extremely talent-deficient defense at times. Inconsistent for sure and occasionally world-class terrible, absolutely. But he does seem like a good leader and I do legitimately look forward to seeing the defense he and JD can put together with another offseason. Our offense was an absolute disaster going into this season, and we've seen that with even middle-tier QB production it's actually pretty respectable now. With more focus on the defense this offseason, and hopefully a serious talent increase with Lawson coming back and a high draft pick, we could see a jump on that side.

[xrade]

5 hours ago, TheChad said:

He needs to be shown that he has to improve his play in order to get to play on Sundays.

How does he show he is improving if he does not play?  Kind of a Catch-22.  By all accounts, Saleh says he does well in practice and we know Saleh would not blow smoke up our *****.  Regardless, if he practices well which should earn him the playing time, why does he crap out in actual games?  Most likely it is a rookie thing and you hope he gets better, but if he is not on the field no one will know if he can play.  The real question is how much time do you give Zach?  Sam got 3 years.

[Bobby816]

24 minutes ago, xrade said:

How does he show he is improving if he does not play?  Kind of a Catch-22.  By all accounts, Saleh says he does well in practice and we know Saleh would not blow smoke up our *****.  Regardless, if he practices well which should earn him the playing time, why does he crap out in actual games?  Most likely it is a rookie thing and you hope he gets better, but if he is not on the field no one will know if he can play.  The real question is how much time do you give Zach?  Sam got 3 years.

3 years is how long he’s given. This wouldn’t be a conversation is White didn’t look ok while Wilson out. If it was just Flacco or Johnson that were behind him. We’d gain nothing not playing Wilson. But White is a guy that looked twice as good as Wilson in a few games and is still only 26. 

[ekill08x]

20 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

What has he done good? I’ve seen maybe a handful of throws from him that look great. When you throw the ball over 200 times… to only have a few good throws is awful. You could do that.

Yeah I mean I wanted him and I’m behind him but we are grasping for straws here. He’s thrown TDs in 2 games. 2. 2 Halves of football in his 6 games he’s thrown TD passes. He has got to be much better. This is a bad of a rookie season as I have ever seen and again…I wanted him and I still think he has potential to be good but he can’t go out on Sunday and play the same game we just saw in Houston or he really has no business being this teams starting QB. Let’s not act like every rookie gets this long leash. He’s been worse than Josh Rosen.

[GangGreen420]

I pray his next 6 games are a lot better than his last 6

[Bobby816]

4 hours ago, ekill08x said:

Yeah I mean I wanted him and I’m behind him but we are grasping for straws here. He’s thrown TDs in 2 games. 2. 2 Halves of football in his 6 games he’s thrown TD passes. He has got to be much better. This is a bad of a rookie season as I have ever seen and again…I wanted him and I still think he has potential to be good but he can’t go out on Sunday and play the same game we just saw in Houston or he really has no business being this teams starting QB. Let’s not act like every rookie gets this long leash. He’s been worse than Josh Rosen.

By all means he has potential and I’m for sure not on the train of giving up on him. I’m cheering for him. But at the same point… I don’t want to hear he’s had bright spots. I watch the games. He hasn’t. As I said maybe a few good throws and decisions. That’s awful. He needs to start progressing. I mean he set the floor about as low as a floor can be. So to progress for him now is to below average. That’s not asking much. Not for a 2nd overall pick.

[TheChad]

13 hours ago, xrade said:

How does he show he is improving if he does not play?  Kind of a Catch-22.  By all accounts, Saleh says he does well in practice and we know Saleh would not blow smoke up our *****.  Regardless, if he practices well which should earn him the playing time, why does he crap out in actual games?  Most likely it is a rookie thing and you hope he gets better, but if he is not on the field no one will know if he can play.  The real question is how much time do you give Zach?  Sam got 3 years.

If that's the case, and Zach is lighting it up in practice and then falling apart in games, particularly first-halves of games, then that's kind of its own thing. And then I agree, he might only get better by actually playing in games.

My assumption with my statements is that he isn't lighting it up in practice either. And if he isn't the best QB in practice, he shouldn't be the starting QB yet. Give him time.

 

I'd love it if his issues are really just first-half nerves. PFR has him as an 88.0 rated passer in the second halves of games, compared to 27.9 (!) in first halves. If he can just learn to get going immediately, we'll be much better off.

Source: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsZa00/splits/2021/

Edited December 2, 2021 by TheChad

[jetfuel34]

I guess I'm the only one that thinks he has to potential. Did I think he had some when we drafted him. Not really to the hype he got. He had no business being a top 20 pick let alone top 2. These teams get so hungry for a QB they will do anything for one. The little potential I think he had is gone. I have seen ZERO improvements. Don't give me this "Oh he had a couple good throws." Ya he is a pro QB he should have a few good throws. Ever QB in the NFL should have a couple good throws. He has thrown an INT in EVER game he has played. He has thrown 2 or more INTS instead of 1 by a lot. I am so over Zach Wilson. I think if we would have grabbed a guy Like Andy Dalton or some other vet we would be in the playoff hunt right now. We would NEVER have started in the hole so much and would win all these easy games. The Jets threw away a playoff run. I guess my question to the people who still think Zach is the answer or should have a long leash, What does Zach have to do to not be the starter anymore and realize the Jets made a MASSIVE mistake and yet reset the clock another 3 years? If he finishes the season with at least 1 int a game? If he finishes the season with no game over 300 passing? How about he stays around 50% completion rate? The numbers don't lie and the OL is playing better he has a RB in MC and his WR crew is pretty good and I say they are average in the league. No QB has started of their career this bad and been good. There is no way he will over come this. P. Manning never started this bad and he made big improvements the last half of his rookie year. Good luck to you guys on the Wilson train but that train is dead and off the rails and will never get back on. 

[xrade]

6 hours ago, TheChad said:

My assumption with my statements is that he isn't lighting it up in practice either. And if he isn't the best QB in practice, he shouldn't be the starting QB yet. Give him time.

Then that is on the coaches.  Saleh repeatedly states how he has good practices.  He also said that about Mims.  So, if Saleh is telling the truth, then yes, Zach needs to get his head on straight to start the game.  If Saleh is lying, then why would they continue to trot him out there?

Personally, I think Zach does well in practice because there is no game day pressure.  He has the tools.  I think he just gets to jittery come game time and then settles in.  He is in his own head.  Hopefully, that is something that can be corrected as he gains game experience and calms the **** down.  I am sure all of us get nervous/excited when we start a new job that is a bit different than our old one.  It takes a while for things to slow down and then we can proceed without over thinking things and just do our jobs.

[jetfuel34]

1 hour ago, xrade said:

Then that is on the coaches.  Saleh repeatedly states how he has good practices.  He also said that about Mims.  So, if Saleh is telling the truth, then yes, Zach needs to get his head on straight to start the game.  If Saleh is lying, then why would they continue to trot him out there?

Personally, I think Zach does well in practice because there is no game day pressure.  He has the tools.  I think he just gets to jittery come game time and then settles in.  He is in his own head.  Hopefully, that is something that can be corrected as he gains game experience and calms the **** down.  I am sure all of us get nervous/excited when we start a new job that is a bit different than our old one.  It takes a while for things to slow down and then we can proceed without over thinking things and just do our jobs.

I total get what you are saying and I agree with you but he should have shown some improvements and in my eyes he has not or you could even argue he even got worse as the season goes on. Ya the coaches should take some blame but at the end of the day Zach has the control on how where and when he throws that ball no one else. In my eyes Mike White is way above him from the first game and half he played to one bad game against the best D in the league. Why does Mike White not start over him? Oh never mind because the jets made a top 10 dummest moves in Jets franchise history by drafting him at 2 and then play him when he NEVER went against a good D in college. Then to add more to it you continue to have him start because you will look like a fool if you bench him. Well playing him makes you look more like a fool than sitting him. The fast they realize he is not a starting NFL QB the fast we can move on. I can go on and on about rookie QB's that did better than him and still did nothing in the league. He is in a deeper hole than these guys and people think by some magic he will be good. There is not 1 QB in NFL history that started out as bad as him and continued to do bad at the end of his rookie year but still became the man for that team.