Trey Lances devolopment (it failed)

[Forge]

2 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

I mean Middlekauff's boss is Cowherd, who admitted he hates Lance today. Soooooo.............

I haven't been following Middlekauff lately, what has he been saying? 

Right now it's more or less just been about mocking 49er fans blaming Kyle for running Trey too much. He got into it with Jessie Nay or whatever his name is and then with Grant

Before that he was mostly just making his opinion on Trey abundantly clear (he thinks he sucks lol...but I don't want to cast shade at that opinion because he has been open to the idea that trey may get better, he just thinks he sucks right now lol). 

But I feel like he's been unusually aggressive lately in this Trey  / 49er fan thing. 

[clarkfn2284]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

Simple answer is often the best - he felt like running these misdirections to stress defenses presented the best use of the run game, which definitely isn't an unreasonable take. I don't necessarily agree with the frequency - as I said, I see no reason to put my QB in harms way on a second and 8 when I can run a HB Counter just as easily - but it's hard to argue the perceived improvement the run game would have with Lance potentially utilizing his legs on these plays. That was one of the huge narratives about having Lance. 

Not all of these designed runs for Treys are designed runs for Trey. A lot of them will have built in options where he makes the decision based on what the defense does. You're still potentially putting your QB in harm's way, but maybe its more acceptable if you don't think he's keeping it as much as he is. Not really sure what his thinking it there. 

I'm not overly apoplectic at what he was doing with Lance. I personally wouldn't have run him as much as Kyle has been, but I understand how he may have gotten to that point and I understand that we are really just talking about a variation of degrees, which is largely just semantical for my preference and what he did. 

Yeah, I can understand wanting to utilize Trey's mobility or threat of it. Situationally though. I can't get on board at all with the risk aspect Kyle just willingly ignores. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

3 minutes ago, Forge said:

Right now it's more or less just been about mocking 49er fans blaming Kyle for running Trey too much. He got into it with Jessie Nay or whatever his name is and then with Grant

Before that he was mostly just making his opinion on Trey abundantly clear (he thinks he sucks lol...but I don't want to cast shade at that opinion because he has been open to the idea that trey may get better, he just thinks he sucks right now lol). 

But I feel like he's been unusually aggressive lately in this Trey  / 49er fan thing. 

Got it, I mean his opinion is his opinion. If he's always felt that way, then there shouldn't be a problem with that. But if he's switched up due to Cowherd, that is dumb....Cowherd completely flipped when Trey left his daughter. And that's so pathetic. 

Mike Silver started going after Trey hard when....wait for it....He joined Cowherd's podcast, The Volume! Sense a trend here????

[Forge]

This right here is a perfect illustration (to me at least) of the disconnect between some people and just how thin the margins are in this conversation. Yes, Trey Lance should be a part of your running game. When and how much is the question. 

 

It sounds great to run Lance 10+ times a game based on what you think Lance is as a runner (which is debatable, but not the point) and then someone basically says, "yeah, that would be the all time record" lol 

Also, lamar jackson is the outlier of all outliers in this. He has the top 3 seasons, capped out at 176. The next highest in modern times is Jalen Hurts with 139 last year. 

[John232]

there is a lot of goal post moving happening on both sides, but i think the “this is foozball” crowd is missing the mark a bit. the truth lies in the middle but foozball people won’t want to admit it. and yeah, they’re comparing to Lamar, who is literally the greatest running QB ever (until Caleb Williams comes in!)

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Kyle has missed the mark on the runners he brought in a few times now. Not a stretch to think the he just completely whiffed on Trey's ability to be a dynamic runner. The guy desperately needs to get passing reps, which I was hoping to see more of. And now I do wonder if moving forward when he comes back Kyle is just going to completely dial back Lance being a factor on running plays. Especially coming off an injury. He was around when RG3 came back from his nasty injury as well, and that entire circus. Like I said elsewhere I just want to see him throw a ton next year. Even if he throws 30 interceptions. Get the YEET cannon running and humming. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by TecmoSuperJoe

[Herodreamer79]

Grant Cohn made a good point. (i know, I know, just mentioning the Cohn name around niner fans is sacrilege)

He said Seattle was keying on Lance in the run game. Which means the THREAT of Lance running alone opens up the run game for everyone else. There's no need to run lance on QB power between the tackles in the 1st Quarter on 2nd and 8 vs a Base Defense when the running game is already cooking and the game isnt on the line. it's an unnecessary risk.

you run lance on 3rd down... when the defense is thinned out and full of DBs. you run him with misdirection and play action... there's plenty of better spots than what shanahan had him doing. 

just a little discretion could have gone a long way. 

as far as" WHO DO YOU START IF LANCE IS HEALTHY LATER IN THE SEASON"

I think if you started the Season with Lance as your starter... it's probably best to go back to him if and when you deem he is 100% healthy. the caveat in all this is the locker room. there seems to be a lot of veteran core players who have pretty strong feelings about Jimmy being their guy - it was evident in their reaction to Jimmy returning as the starter. they were jubilant. The entire team perked up and had a bounce in their step the moment jimmy stepped on the field. is the locker room going to go to sleep if Lance comes in? are the fans going to start booing if he starts missing throws? 

this is why bringing Garoppolo back, while it saves the 49ers now, really makes things awkward and a pain in the a$$ when you're trying to develop your young QB and the entire core of the locker room and half the fanbase is just dreaming of jimmy the entire time.

Shanahan really needs to get on his locker room... it's really starting to seem like the inmates are running the asylum when it comes to this issue. 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Herodreamer79

[49erurtaza]

15 minutes ago, Herodreamer79 said:

Shanahan really needs to get on his locker room... it's really starting to seem like the inmates are running the asylum when it comes to this issue

[Steve_DeBerg_Fan_420]

15 minutes ago, Herodreamer79 said:

Grant Cohn made a good point. (i know, I know, just mentioning the Cohn name around niner fans is sacrilege)

He said Seattle was keying on Lance in the run game. Which means the THREAT of Lance running alone opens up the run game for everyone else. There's no need to run lance on QB power between the tackles in the 1st Quarter on 2nd and 8 vs a Base Defense when the running game is already cooking and the game isnt on the line. it's an unnecessary risk.

you run lance on 3rd down... when the defense is thinned out and full of DBs. you run him with misdirection and play action... there's plenty of better spots than what shanahan had him doing. 

just a little discretion could have gone a long way. 

as far as" WHO DO YOU START IF LANCE IS HEALTHY LATER IN THE SEASON"

I think if you started the Season with Lance as your starter... it's probably best to go back to him if and when you deem he is 100% healthy. the caveat in all this is the locker room. there seems to be a lot of veteran core players who have pretty strong feelings about Jimmy being their guy - it was evident in their reaction to Jimmy returning as the starter. they were jubilant. The entire team perked up and had a bounce in their step the moment jimmy stepped on the field. is the locker room going to go to sleep if Lance comes in? are the fans going to start booing if he starts missing throws? 

this is why bringing Garoppolo back, while it saves the 49ers now, really makes things awkward and a pain in the a$$ when you're trying to develop your young QB and the entire core of the locker room and half the fanbase is just dreaming of jimmy the entire time.

Shanahan really needs to get on his locker room... it's really starting to seem like the inmates are running the asylum when it comes to this issue. 

 

I think just running him fewer times, and teaching him to slide would have been a neat thing for the coaching staff to do.

The slide is good for health, and the team gets a few free yards. Lance was running way too many times.  You only have to run it about 5 times per game to have a full threat of running the ball.  He needed reps.  The longer this goes on, the less of a chance there is a return on the investment.  His problems were more mechanical than mental, and being able to build the muscle memory in the short passing game was the #1 thing he needed to master before the playoffs.  Now he can't, and a less talented team will have to bite the bullet to develop Trey.  

 

I would not start trey if he came back.  The Trey I thought the 49ers wanted in the playoffs had like a thousand snaps under his belt, and hopefully developed through the process.  He would be too raw to be thrown into the fire that late.  Barring a JG injury, I don't think the team makes the change, but what do I know, I have been wrong every step of the way this year with regards to the QB position.  

I think it is way too soon to call Trey a bust, but I am seriously starting to doubt if he will give us elite level QB play on that sweet Rookie deal.  I wish we could loan trey out for a year to a different club, then get him back in 2024 when he is more experienced, lol.  

I feel really medium about this season now.  I hope this team has the talent to carry Jimmy G to a super bowl win, but there are some stacked teams in the league this year.  Jimmy G to Buffalo or LA (Chargers) just feels like taking a knife to a gun fight.  We've been down this path, gotten pretty far, but ultimately it felt like the team needed to improve to get over the hump.  Maybe we will get lucky this time, and something bad will happen to the other team, or they will under perform.  

I guess in a way, I feel spoiled, because I don't care about just making the playoffs.  In 2009 the playoffs felt like a fictional universe the 49ers had no part of, now they are expected again every year, not celebrated.  That being said, it would be easier to be happy with good seasons if the team had won a championship in the last 25 years.  

[straighthate]

We watched 5 quarters and are trying to project out the whole season. 4 quarters in a miserable monsoon and one to start a game. Everything Shanny calls is to set up later. He uses the run game go set up the pass. The fact he ran these inside runs with Lance doesn’t mean he’d keep doing it all game. Maybe he wanted to do it a few times to pull the DBs up and later in the game use that for the deep ball. Or to set up an outside Deebo run. 
 

Lance was in for what, 15 plays on Sunday? I think it’s fair to guess the offense might have looked much different later in the game. And once again, I don’t wanna hear about the Bears game. It was miserable there so talking about all the runs is irrelevant. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

So I've been watching a bunch of videos from medical experts on Lance's injury and all of them for the most part are very optimistic about his recovery and many think he should be good to go by December. Does anyone know if we can put him on short-term IR for now and then move him to long-term IR if need be? 

[Forge]

5 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

So I've been watching a bunch of videos from medical experts on Lance's injury and all of them for the most part are very optimistic about his recovery and many think he should be good to go by December. Does anyone know if we can put him on short-term IR for now and then move him to long-term IR if need be? 

Don't think that's how it works. I think it's basically just IR and you can bring up to 8 people back if they get healthy enough. So if we haven't brought 8 people back by the time he's healthy, we can theoretically bring him back

[J-ALL-DAY]

4 minutes ago, Forge said:

Don't think that's how it works. I think it's basically just IR and you can bring up to 8 people back if they get healthy enough. So if we haven't brought 8 people back by the time he's healthy, we can theoretically bring him back

Got it, I didn't know if you had to label it short-term IR or long-term IR. Then Lance will just be put on IR and they can see how his recovery goes. Having him back sometime in December even if he is not starting will be great. Lance will at least be able to get out on the practice field. And if needed, can even start, especially if Jimmy is hurt....Which we know at some point will be the case lol.

[757-NINER]

13 hours ago, Herodreamer79 said:

Grant Cohn made a good point. (i know, I know, just mentioning the Cohn name around niner fans is sacrilege)

He said Seattle was keying on Lance in the run game. Which means the THREAT of Lance running alone opens up the run game for everyone else. There's no need to run lance on QB power between the tackles in the 1st Quarter on 2nd and 8 vs a Base Defense when the running game is already cooking and the game isnt on the line. it's an unnecessary risk.

you run lance on 3rd down... when the defense is thinned out and full of DBs. you run him with misdirection and play action... there's plenty of better spots than what shanahan had him doing. 

just a little discretion could have gone a long way. 

as far as" WHO DO YOU START IF LANCE IS HEALTHY LATER IN THE SEASON"

I think if you started the Season with Lance as your starter... it's probably best to go back to him if and when you deem he is 100% healthy. the caveat in all this is the locker room. there seems to be a lot of veteran core players who have pretty strong feelings about Jimmy being their guy - it was evident in their reaction to Jimmy returning as the starter. they were jubilant. The entire team perked up and had a bounce in their step the moment jimmy stepped on the field. is the locker room going to go to sleep if Lance comes in? are the fans going to start booing if he starts missing throws? 

this is why bringing Garoppolo back, while it saves the 49ers now, really makes things awkward and a pain in the a$$ when you're trying to develop your young QB and the entire core of the locker room and half the fanbase is just dreaming of jimmy the entire time.

Shanahan really needs to get on his locker room... it's really starting to seem like the inmates are running the asylum when it comes to this issue. 

 

Don't know if I mentioned it here but when the injury happened I said that I didn't have an issue with the call itself but the timing of it during the ebb and flow of what we were doing on the ground didn't make much sense to me.

[clarkfn2284]

11 hours ago, straighthate said:

We watched 5 quarters and are trying to project out the whole season. 4 quarters in a miserable monsoon and one to start a game. Everything Shanny calls is to set up later. He uses the run game go set up the pass. The fact he ran these inside runs with Lance doesn’t mean he’d keep doing it all game. Maybe he wanted to do it a few times to pull the DBs up and later in the game use that for the deep ball. Or to set up an outside Deebo run. 
 

Lance was in for what, 15 plays on Sunday? I think it’s fair to guess the offense might have looked much different later in the game. And once again, I don’t wanna hear about the Bears game. It was miserable there so talking about all the runs is irrelevant. 

Sample size is small overall, but when you go back and look at the Arizona game and listen to what Shanahan has said this was going to be a staple of how he planned to use Trey. It would obviously evolve, but I think we can look at usage and the previous games and see the trend. I don't think he was looking to consistently run Trey 13 times a game, but I think 8-10 was going to be the end result. That imo, is about 3-5 too many designed calls into the teeth of the defense. Granted option plays have options, but it doesn't excuse his lack of risk/reward contemplation.