AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 3 minutes ago, Soggust said: Two Thoughts: ----- Don't or can't? I think it's an important distinction. Allen didn't get it done this year, but clearly it wasn't because he couldn't. True, so additional context would be needed. 3 minutes ago, Soggust said: Obviously, that's an extreme example, and Rodgers hasn't played 2021-Allenesque over the years (who has lol), but conversely he's also played relatively well (certainly well above average) on the whole of the playoffs. Sure, he hasn't 'gotten it done' recently, but are we suggesting he can't going forward? Played well, but did he do well in clutch moments? History would certainly say no. 3 minutes ago, Soggust said: ----- How many Super Bowls would you expect an average 'non-choking' QB to win in 11 playoff runs, just curious? 2 at least. 3 minutes ago, Soggust said: If the answer is 2-3 (which I think is debatable), is he a 'choker'? Or is he just running a bit below average statistically? Perhaps it's the same thing, but it just seems like we are talking about a few missed opportunities, not really 15 years of choking. Therefore, to me, it seems kinda overreactionary to think a guy doesn't/can't get the job done when he has literally won before and is, clearly to the eye test, one of the best in the game. Aaron Rodgers is a HOF talent, arguably right up there with GOAT in terms of how good he is and has been. He plays in a cake division in a weak conference, yet has 1 Superbowl appearance while failing consistently on offense to even make a Superbowl or win playoff games. I would argue that's definitely being a choker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 12 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: True, so additional context would be needed. Played well, but did he do well in clutch moments? History would certainly say no. 2 at least. Aaron Rodgers is a HOF talent, arguably right up there with GOAT in terms of how good he is and has been. He plays in a cake division in a weak conference, yet has 1 Superbowl appearance while failing consistently on offense to even make a Superbowl or win playoff games. I would argue that's definitely being a choker. So, to be clear, you would also put Brett Favre, Kurt Warner, and Steve Young in the "choke artist" tier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: True, so additional context would be needed. Played well, but did he do well in clutch moments? History would certainly say no. 2 at least. Aaron Rodgers is a HOF talent, arguably right up there with GOAT in terms of how good he is and has been. He plays in a cake division in a weak conference, yet has 1 Superbowl appearance while failing consistently on offense to even make a Superbowl or win playoff games. I would argue that's definitely being a choker. Do you think he's hypothetically capable of winning a SB with a competent team (current packers, e.g.) as a primary focus of the offense (i.e. - Not a 2015 Manning scenario)? I still do, regardless of 'not doing enough' previously. I just think it's hard to win in the playoffs lol. If you don't, are you saying that because he hasn't done it in 10 years, that he CAN'T win a Super Bowl (excluding the Manning scenario)? And this is because he just doesn't have the intangible "it" factor required to win a Super Bowl anymore, as evidenced by the 3-6 bad (kind of) games (clutch moments), the above Packers fan mentioned? Idk, I'm still taking Aaron Rodgers over every QB not named Tom Brady or maybe Patrick Mahomes to win the super bowl in any current given year, choker or not, lol. In fact, I'll go even further and say if we time-machine back 10-15 years and re-simulate all the randomness etc, I would take Peyton Manning over Eli Manning every single year to win the super bowl choker or not lol. Edited January 26, 2022 by Soggust typo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 1 hour ago, MWil23 said: So, to be clear, you would also put Brett Favre, Kurt Warner, and Steve Young in the "choke artist" tier? man idk stop asking me questions, Satan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 9 minutes ago, Soggust said: Do you think he's hypothetically capable of winning a SB with a competent team (current packers, e.g.) as a primary focus of the offense (i.e. - Not a 2015 Manning scenario)? Is that not what the Packers currently are? And hasn't it been proven already in back-to-back years he can't? He was the MVP last year and this year he's gonna be really close if not win it again, so what are they missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: man idk stop asking me questions, Satan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: Is that not what the Packers currently are? And hasn't it been proven already in back-to-back years he can't? He was the MVP last year and this year he's gonna be really close if not win it again, so what are they missing? Exactly what they are. That's why I'm asking. Is the 'choker' label supposed to make me think he's not hypothetically capable of winning it next year (assuming he returns with Adams etc)? Cause if he did come back with the current scenario next year or whatever, I would absolutely have them as one of the favorites to win the Super Bowl (because I don't care that he's 'choked' before lol). Edited January 26, 2022 by Soggust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 11 minutes ago, Soggust said: Exactly what they are. That's why I'm asking. Is the 'choker' label supposed to make me think he's not hypothetically capable of winning it next year (assuming he returns with Adams etc)? Cause if he did come back with the current scenario next year or whatever, I would absolutely have them as one of the favorites to win the Super Bowl (because I don't care that he's 'choked' before lol). Yeah I think one of the biggest things about being a choker is that at any time you can shed that label, but until it happens, it's what you are. And for Rodgers, I certainly feel he is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 13 minutes ago, MWil23 said: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabbs4u Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chiefer said: Id say Andy Reid coached teams were considered that way for a very long time. With his clock management issues and cute playcalls at the worst times. Yeah, all of that gets lost because he finally saw the light in KC the past 5 years. Coincidentally the arrival of Mahomes. Everyone wants to blame McNabb for the Eagles never winning a SB but Andy was every bit as much to blame, if not more. From what you listed above to his absurd obsession with 80-20/70-30 pass to run ratio most games despite having legit game changing RB at his disposal. Beyond frustrating! Edited January 26, 2022 by Nabbs4u 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefer Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said: Yeah, all of that gets lost because he finally saw the light in KC the past 5 years. Coincidentally the arrival of Mahomes. Everyone wants to blame McNabb for the Eagles never winning a SB but Andy was every bit as much to blame, if not more. From what you listed above to his absurd obsession with 80-20/70-30 pass to run ratio most games despite having legit game changing RB at his disposal. Beyond frustrating! I still visually remember Mahomes first year starting and him being frustrated and yelling at Coach Reid to get the playcall in faster, never seen a QB do that to him before. Alex Smith would be a good soldier and wait the entire play clock to get the call and follow it to the letter. Id say Mahomes has been just as good for Andy as Andy has been for Mahomes. Edited January 26, 2022 by Chiefer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeptunePenguins Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 4 hours ago, notthatbluestuff said: 1, winning the Stanley Cup is arguably even harder than winning the Super Bowl, so no. 2, the numbers suggest that Ovechkin is a strong playoff performer. The Capitals as a whole choked for many years, but Ovechkin himself wasn't the problem. I will now use this as proof as to why Tom Brady needs to win 16 Super Bowls to truly be the GOAT of all athletes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notthatbluestuff Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 3 minutes ago, NeptunePenguins said: I will now use this as proof as to why Tom Brady needs to win 16 Super Bowls to truly be the GOAT of all athletes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHARMON9 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 It's the way Rodgers has lost. The Narrative has always been a bad defense. When you look at it in context the Defense has been either elite or Terrible. I personally give full blame for the NFCCG Seahawks loss to Rodgers. It should have never been that close. This past game was around 40% Rodgers, Aaron Jones 10%( The lack of situational awareness was mind boggling), and Special Teams the remainder. The year prior versus the Bucs he did enough. That game was all on Kevin King (80%) and Chad Sullivan (20%). Dont take the percentages too literally lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamKid Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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