bmorecareful Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 17 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Okay, let's say hypothetically his eFG falls to like 30% on shots beyond what he's already taken., that still means Jordan would score only 1 PPG more while having the advantage of playing in an easier era to score. In the playoffs: Jordan averaged 33.4 PPG on 25.1 FGA/Game at 56.8% TS. Lebron averages 28.7 PPG on 20.7 FGA/Game at 58.3% TS. 4.7 more points on 4.3 more FGA isn't that impressive when you're talking about that level of volume. An easier era to score… bruh we can’t talk no more lol… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 36 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: Very solid perimeter defender = 9x first team all-defense??? Yes. The basketball media in the 90s was embarrassing in how they awarded these awards. Every advanced measurement of defensive impact says Jordan was a pretty good but not great perimeter defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 1 hour ago, bmorecareful said: An easier era to score… bruh we can’t talk no more lol… You're falling for old head propaganda. The league average in PPG was over 105 PPG for Jordan's first 9 years. The league average didn't get back to 105 PPG until 2016-2017. Lebron was 32 at that point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 7 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Yes. The basketball media in the 90s was embarrassing in how they awarded these awards. Every advanced measurement of defensive impact says Jordan was a pretty good but not great perimeter defender. Could you provide a link? I'm genuinely curious. I see he is ranked 23rd all time in defensive win shares, with most the players ahead of him being centers. That would suggest all time great, not "pretty good". The Bulls were also a defensive powerhouse during Jordan's run in the 1990s. My recollection is that he was an excellent defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said: Could you provide a link? I'm genuinely curious. I see he is ranked 23rd all time in defensive win shares, with most the players ahead of him being centers. That would suggest all time great, not "pretty good". The Bulls were also a defensive powerhouse during Jordan's run in the 1990s. My recollection is that he was an excellent defender. Jordan is 32nd in overall minutes played. Being 23rd in defensive win shares isn't that impressive. + In DBPM Jordan ranked by year: 84: 17th 86: 6th 87: 1st 88: 1st 89: 11th 90: 4th 91: 6th 92: 6th 95: 5th 96: 37th 97: 39th 01: 105th 02: 88th That's actually a lot better than I remember, I'm wondering if the DBPM has been redone since I looked. The important caveat to add on these is that: Jordan played a **** ton of minutes which helps him a lot and obscures a lot of +/- data. He had the benefit of playing on the opposition's least dangerous non-big. So he got the scaling of a SG when it frequently should have been the PG scaling. Admittedly there were times when it also should have been SF scaling based on matchup. He was an extremely aggressive defender, which led to some oversized box score metrics. We don't hype the steals/rebounds leaders either at this point. DBPM still tends to overrate wing impact https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html#:~:text=This is done by taking,- 4.75 %2B 0.175 * ReMPG. I'll also add that my personal memories of Jordan were from the 2nd 3-peat, which may impact my view on this subject. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 I leave for a weekend and this turns into the basketball forum? Stop discussing basketball in an nfl comparisons thread. A one off analogy doesn't need to be a full blown discussion even if you disagree with it. It takes away from the actual discussion of the thread mse326 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabbs4u Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 (edited) Reggie White Lawrence Taylor Ronnie Lott Deacon Jones Mean Joe Green Rod Woodson Deion Sanders Aaron Donald Bruce Smith Ray Lewis Edited April 9, 2022 by Nabbs4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboRocket Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 On 3/29/2022 at 4:10 PM, Matts4313 said: Solid list, but missing Bruce Smith Reggie White is the best defender ever. Try Donald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 1 minute ago, HoboRocket said: Try Donald Duck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboRocket Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Just now, Matts4313 said: Duck? Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 1 minute ago, HoboRocket said: Aaron Never heard of him. -Urban Meyer 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezy Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 Deion Sanders Lawrence Taylor Reggie White Ray Lewis Bruce Smith Deacon Jones Aaron Donald JJ Watt Derrick Thomas Ed Reed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqOptic Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 (edited) On 3/30/2022 at 12:32 PM, Tk3 said: I don't like the prompt, so I'll make my own... Keeping it to ~2000s to present Aaron Donald Ray Lewis Julius Peppers J.J. Watt Ed Reed Brian Urlacher DeMarcus Ware Luke Kuechly Darrelle Revis Patrick Willis Also, people in this thread are DEFINITELY falling into the "older is always better when it comes to All-Time" trap According to everyone here, the past 20 years of uber talented players has produced 10% of the best players, while the prior 20 years has produced 80% Goofy There's no way in hell Brian Urlacher is a Top 10 defender of the last 20 years, let alone better than Troy Polamalu and Charles Woodson in that regard. Edited April 15, 2022 by BlaqOptic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknowcool Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 On 4/1/2022 at 7:24 PM, bmorecareful said: My only issue with pass rushers of today vs guys like LT Bruce smith and Reggie white is the amount of attempts they get to rush the passer in comparison… On the flip side, pass blocking schemes and techniques are likely better now than back then (when it was common for QBs to drop-back under center to pass, sometimes with 2 backs) and between how involved receiving backs, tight ends, and slot receivers are in the vast majority of offenses, teams are able to get the ball out quicker too. If anything I feel like it would be harder now to accumulate sacks than it was back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdonnelly21 Posted April 15, 2022 Author Share Posted April 15, 2022 If I were to do an 80s and on defense LE: Reggie White DT: Aaron Donald DT: Hloti Ngata RE: Bruce Smith OLB: Lawrence Taylor MLB: Ray Lewis OLB: Derrick Thomas S: Ed Reed S #2: Ronnie Lott CB #1: Deion Sanders CB #2: Darrell Revis If I want two inside linebackers then give me Patrick Willis If I want 3 corners or 4 corners CB #3: Charles Woodson CB: #4: Champ Bailey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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