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Cavaliers Thread: We Don’t Suck Again!


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I called the injury issue and how "flashing forward to the next few days" would mean people would start paying attention to other relevant factors in the trade, re-evaluate the trade, and ultimately figure out that we didn't get enough....
 

On 8/22/2017 at 9:17 PM, Mind Character said:

Saying that we won or we got a haul is madness in my mind...

Flash forward to tomorrow when all these cavs fans realize Isaiah thomas my not start the year and may come back a step slow at 5ft 9 next year...lol...then their opinions will change...

On 8/22/2017 at 9:17 PM, Mind Character said:

No one follows the nba closely or they would know that IT has a terrible hip injury that just yesterday Ainge and Stevens said was taking longer than expected to rehab. The hip is a major fulcrum for power, speed, and quickness which is the whole game for a 5ft 9 point guard.

With IT's injury, we did not get enough. If he sits out a major portion of the year due to surgery this deal makes no sense at all....When people come to realize this, they will understand that we got fleeced. The best player and the youngest player in this deal is leaving our team. A player 5 years older, less talented, smaller, needed a max contract in the future, with a hip injury that is central to his skill is coming to us with the prospective top 5 pick as the nets are predicted to be better than the Bulls, Hawks, and Magic. Only the top 2 picks get the franchise players in Porter Jr. and Bagley.

Lol...what a difference a day makes...

Should be fun to hear people come to their senses....or the many that will double down and rationalize based on the nets pick.

These are the same people that don't realize how improved the nets roster is, how they might be the 5th or 6th worst not the 1st or 2nd...and how that roster will not stink as much as the nontalent no name dumpster fires of the atlanta hawks and bulls which means no Porter Jr. or Bagley which means the pick is meaningless (Mohamed Bamba's a project and Ayton is big man with bad knees already)

.....Only much much later will they realize that no all star // top franchise building players are available as they're either locked into a team or the few of them are unlikely to get traded (Kristaps? No...Paul George? No...Anthony Davis? Hell no). The one that may be available for that pick is Demarcus cousins and the cavs FO won't trade the pick for him unless Lebron commits long term which he wont

Edited by Mind Character
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3 hours ago, Mastercheddaar said:

Reports are saying IT might be more injured than thought. Wondering if he past the physical? At this point, if he is that hurt then well maybe we tell them to include Laker's first rounder as well???

that is all

Mastercheddaar

need more than that...IT's value was in helping us compete and get Lebron to sign back (Even if the Cavs don't even believe Bron is coming back). Hip surgery leads to prolonged absence and he'd be coming back lesser and without experience on a championship challenging team.

The Lakers are going to be around the 8 or 9th worst team in the league as they signed KCP and still 20pts and 8 rebs Brooke Lopez to add to an ascending roster. If the pick doesn't fall in the 2-5 range the pick turns to the highest pick between the Kings and 76ers in 2019.  The 76ers could be soaring at that point meaning the pick is top 14; the kings have De'aaron Fox in the backcourt with george hill along with an ascending buddy hield, skol Labbisierre...that pick will be top 12 at best in 2019...

So, a top 14 pick in 2019 does not make up for IT being out...it could be argued that a top 3 pick could but the Lakers just won't be that bad unless the ping pong balls fall favorably...either way that extra pick doesn't help with competing this year and keeping Lebron potentially.

If IT is hurt, I think adding Jaylon Brown, Marcus Smart, and the Lakers/kings/76ers pick approximates the lost value. Brown average 6pts last year but showed promise...Smart gives us a defending pg with toughness but no 3pt ability at all at all.

I still don't like it....to make it right I need Jayson Tatum and Marcus Smart...So, Kyrie Irving for Jayson Tatum, Jae Crowder, Marcus Smart, and the Nets pick. They can keep Ante...he's garbage..watch his summer league highlights; he is not long for the league; he's a sloth...Edy Tavares currently on the roster is a better young Center prospect.

I'd even throw in the Channing Frye's expiring contract or another cavs asset....

Kyrie Irving for Jayson Tatum, Jae Crowder, Marcus Smart, and the Nets pick

OR

Kyrie Irving for Jaylon Brown, Jae Crowder, Marcus Smart, the Nets pick, and the Lakers/kings/76ers pick

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@Mind Character you say "I'd need..... to make it right", but do you think Altman wasn't asking for those things? 

The scenarios you listed are unrealistic at best. Why would Boston trade for Irving and keep Thomas?  How do those two play together?  Why would they want Frye?  What other assets do they have to throw in?

You can ask for whatever you want, but it doesn't mean you're going to get it.

Are you still under the delusion you get equal value trading stars who want out? Did you see the deals that landed PG and Butler? 

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3 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

@Mind Character you say "I'd need..... to make it right", but do you think Altman wasn't asking for those things? 

The scenarios you listed are unrealistic at best. Why would Boston trade for Irving and keep Thomas?  How do those two play together?  Why would they want Frye?  What other assets do they have to throw in?

You can ask for whatever you want, but it doesn't mean you're going to get it.

Are you still under the delusion you get equal value trading stars who want out? Did you see the deals that landed PG and Butler? 

Surgery is the game changer in the value assessment of IT, LGB. All surgeries possess uncertainty...I've been assuming surgery from the beginning.

Hip surgery is no joke, doesn't guarantee full recovery and healing within the same 8 months span...

Of course Altman asked for those things and probably  more....oh and here's a nice juicy wall of text

Whatever one can negotiate is what's realistic in exchange of perceived values...

i don't think we send isaiah back but I would not really factor him into the acquired value of the trade as his injury basically makes him a non-asset (a hip injured speed/quickness skilled player available for maybe half the season that likely won't be full speed this year and needs a max contract at the end of the year) in the trade for which his lost value could be replaced by some combo of assets like Jaylon Brown, Lakers pick, and/or Marcus Smart...

In the case of surgery and prolonged absence, we'd be bringing back a player that has never played with our team after half way (or more) through the season, after derrick rose has hopefully started all year, isaiah would want to start due to impending contract year, there could be all kinds of chemistry/friction regarding whether isaiah or derrick starts, isaiah might not be fully healthy or might come back as lesser of a player, there may be risk for reinjury or not having him at all in his final season.....that's not the same asset as a player that helps us compete and possibly convince Bron to come back

These are all things you valuate and factor into exchange of perceived value in the asset/value exchange between teams....just like if Kyrie had 1 less year on his contract it would change his asset value...

We have 1st round pick of our own and soon to be castoff players that we can add if necessary...

I'm under the delusion that Kyrie Irving is a young superstar who hit the biggest shot in finals history at 23/24 years old, shoots 40% from 3, has the best handles in the game, is one of the best under the rim finishers of all time (said by HOF Isaiah Thomas, Kenny Smith, and Oscar Robertson), and is still growing as a player (although everyone thinks he is unique in the history of great nba players where for some reason at 25 he is done evolving/growing/improving as a player)....

...AND that Jae Crowder, the nets pick, and a soon to be out of the league slowfooted/uncoordinated Ante Zizic is not enough trade value in return. 

I'm not saying necessarily that Isaiah thomas goes back to Boston but he does becomes a different asset if for example his hip surgery is not just to fix a labrul tear that requires about 4 months to come back from but something with even more uncertainty regarding the healing process.

It could be something more and require a 5 month time table according to one of the doctors that initially told Isaiah he needed surgery before.

 

Edited by Mind Character
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7 hours ago, bosko1616 said:

Call me crazy. But I'd want to keep Isaiah. Let him have surgery. Come back midway through full strength. But I'd obviously want more. Either Smart,Tatum or Brown thrown in. 

Forgot what thread I was in and thought Crowell had been injured. My stupidity scared me for a moment, now I realize how those around me feel.

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Of course Isaiah has reduced value, that's why he was included in the deal. The Celtics would gladly part with him over the likes of Brown, Tatum, etc. 

Isaiah was included because he's a guy who helps us now who Boston isn't opposed to parting with, but he's not necessarily a building block moving forward.  I don't think we'll be offering him the max next summer, but that's just me.

You keep focusing on equal value but you're operating in a fantasy world, you never get equal value in these deals, typically it's 50-75 cents on the dollar. With this deal we got (provided IT is healthy and rolling by April) an efficient scoring guard who does a lot of the same things Kyrie does, a competent 3/D guy who helps matchup against GS on one of the best contracts in the league and a guaranteed lottery pick. We made a deal that allows us to both compete this season as well as keep an eye on the future should LBJ leave.  And we couldn't have added our 1sr rounder to any deal until draft night, so there's that.

Your whole argument about his hip is all well and good, but he hasn't missed any time yet and his immediate return isn't necessary. It's entirely possible his hip checks out and all of your issues are irrelevant. We'll just have to wait and see.  If his hip is truly crap, then you are dead on this was not a great deal, but it's premature to operate under the assumption it is without any knowledge of the situation.

As far as Kyrie the player, he's a great scorer a great finisher and clutch, no doubt.  He also plays no defense, does a poor job facilitating for others and hasn't shown an ability to do much of anything without LBJ besides get buckets.  We lost leads and games when LBJ rested. 

Kyrie is a good player, without question, but unlike some folks *ahem* I'm not one to throw around terms liked "transcendent" and "generational" unless it actually applies. Thus far Kyrie has shown to be a superb second banana who plays one side of the floor.

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2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Damn you @Mind Character, now you have me typing novels....

giphy.gif

GOOD...GOOD...your journey toward the dark side is nearly complete...

(You and I know this is all I've ever wanted....lol...)

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

You keep focusing on equal value but you're operating in a fantasy world, you never get equal value in these deals

In short, if IT was healthy, you would've heard nothing from me about this trade.

If the pick was not the Nets pick but the Hawks' or Bulls pick, I would have very little to say about the value received via trade as well.

History says that you're correct about not getting fair value, but history including nba trades is filled with many exceptions...I'm not looking for equal value it's just that I value Kyrie so highly that it takes a lot even to meet below his fair value.

I also don't think the Nets pick is likely to net us a franchise player but a player more in line with Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson (who were both taken Number 4 overall). ATL, Bulls, will be worse (Likely the Magic and Melo-less Knicks as well) and get the cream of the crop talent leaving that pick for a Tristan Thompson type non franchise building talent selected very high in the draft. Bagley, Porter jr. are the cream of the crop...followed by Bamba and Ayton who may be more Waiters and Tristan Thompson or Derrick Williams than anything.

But like I said..It's all been about the injury to me and how imo I think it makes the value of the trade not about "fair value" exchange but Boston getting a "generational rim finisher, clutch factor player, and young assassin pg scorer)"

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

but unlike some folks *ahem* I'm not one to throw around terms liked "transcendent" and "generational" unless it actually applies

My heavens...my word...I'd never...you're a barbarian I tell you...

You're trying to tell me I was wrong about calling 4th Round Patriots pick OT Antonio Garcia generational...how dare you sir...

if Kyrie is as good as I think he can grow to be (which is the clear best pg in the game and top 8 pg in nba history...all he has to do is learn to make plays for others and put in more defensive effort) than what I'm saying is fair value in exchange isn't even enough...

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

It's entirely possible his hip checks out and all of your issues are irrelevant.

Facts...you could be right...BUT if you're wrong which is the assumption I've been operating under; That is, IT will be out for even longer than expected...then we need more value in return. Of course, my underlying assumption could be completely wrong, but I've been talking about the hip from the beginning in my evaluation of this trade.

 

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

 He also plays no defense, does a poor job facilitating for others and hasn't shown an ability to do much of anything without LBJ besides get buckets.  We lost leads and games when LBJ rested. 

Absolutely true...defense was said about James Harden as well and to take the next step he improved defensively this year. Kyrie plays great defense in crunch time moments and is a bigger guard in the league..he just has to commit and focus. That's part of being the man and I think he's ready for that challenge. It's not as if he's unable to do it.

The "he can't lead without LBJ thing" will come with practice and opportunity and evolution. He's talented enough to make that step...and I think he will. He has the ability and the aptitude...now it's his time. I'd bet on Kyrie's talent, work ethic, and drive...it's all on him and he thrives under that type of pressure.

How is the a player with the best handles in a league with pgs with some of the best handles (Chris paul and Steph), best finisher at the rim, clutch in the biggest moment of the game, scores 50 plus over and over again at the point guard position not generational or "transcendent." I mean it's accurate to say he's not Lebron James or shaq generational or transcendent, but he possesses skills that come a long "once in a generation" as noted by other generational talents like HOF Isaiah thomas and John Stockton when they talk about Kyrie's pull up game, handles, rim finishing, and clutch factor.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

With this deal we got (provided IT is healthy and rolling by April)

You assume he will be...you may be absolutely correct...I assume that a 5ft 9...29 year old player may suffer decrements in skill and movement ability post hip surgery...I could be completely wrong...you're right time will tell

Edited by Mind Character
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This might be very unpopular,  but I'd go for broke on the future right now. LeBron is gone in a year and we won't beat GS anyway, so tear it down. Trade Kyrie, KLove,  and anyone else you can get value for. Be upfront with LBJ about the whole thing and maybe he'll help facilitate a trade of himself. Get all the youth and assets you can. Fans n media would destroy you for it, but we'd be thanking ownership in 3-4 years when this team is respectable and loaded up to be in a position similar to where the timberwolves were this year.

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3 hours ago, Fatgerman said:

This might be very unpopular,  but I'd go for broke on the future right now. LeBron is gone in a year and we won't beat GS anyway, so tear it down. Trade Kyrie, KLove,  and anyone else you can get value for. Be upfront with LBJ about the whole thing and maybe he'll help facilitate a trade of himself. Get all the youth and assets you can. Fans n media would destroy you for it, but we'd be thanking ownership in 3-4 years when this team is respectable and loaded up to be in a position similar to where the timberwolves were this year.

The Timberwolves? You mean the 30 win team who hasn't made the playoffs in a decade?  

Why exactly is it impossible to beat GS?  Do injuries never ever happen? Upsets?

This franchise has never been to a finals sans LBJ and you want to trade away a strong possibility of at least one more and potentially multiple more just to jump start a rebuild that will most likely amount to nothing??

This stretch with LBJ the last 3 years and this season is most likely the best stretch any of us see as Cavs fans. Enjoy it. Enjoy every second.

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