Training Camp 2022: Luh-trowb or Lay-trowb?

[warfelg]

I’d suggest listening to the last Locked On that Arthur Moats was on. He lays out the case very well on there that it has more to do with earning the spot and earning the respect of the vets. He stated Tomlin does this will all rookies regardless of round or pick number. 

[August4th]

want to see some shots down the middle from kenny tonight

Edited August 20, 2022 by August4th

[Dcash4]

I appreciate the response @MOSteelers56, But I think some of those fears are overblown. 

IMO, your afraid the the thing least likely to happen. I get people point at Darnold (who had the benefit of one of the worst teams, coaches, and front offices), but there’s way to many examples now of players - specifically QBs - not destroying their careers by playing early. If a dude throws a pick and is that fragile that he can’t rebound…I’d be worried. QBs need a certain mentality. Part of that you either have or you don’t. Life in the NFL won’t be kid gloves. 

Burrow tore his ACL behind a horrid line and then lead his team to the super bowl the following year. Manning had 20 picks his rookie season and had a hall of fame career. I, personally, don’t get the “we might break him” thing. If struggles breaks him, he isn’t fit for the league. 

Your focus is a bad oline, but are cool with Kenny playing 6-8 games in….with the same o-line. So what is it about 8 games that changes things? What about next year if the oline isn’t good again? That’s a fear that needs to be held by the offensive coordinator and what Canada has shown, will benefit the QB. Screens, jets, a commitment to the run, PA, RPOs, half field roll outs, etc. You won’t eliminate the problem, but you can mitigate the issue. 

1 hour ago, MOSteelers56 said:

he can learn how NFL defenses play while standing on the sideline

It’s one thing to know what’s happening but it’s another entirely to actually do it. Maybe it’s just my personal experience at the position, but you can’t learn QB by sitting on the sidelines. You need to know the speed, you need to see the changes, you need the bullets flying, you have to be on the field to gain the experience that makes that knowledge worth while. And that’s the issue with the QB position and practice time. If he isn’t the starter, he doesn’t get reps — and reps are what he needs. 

IMO, there is no bigger mistake that we could make is year than not having Kenny start at some point. Baring Mitch being so good we decided to extend him or us winning the super bowl, every missed rep for Kenny is a missed opportunity for his development. The guy that likely isn’t on this team in 2023 shouldn’t factor into this equation…the only question should be “is Kenny ready?”. 

The experience of reps is too valuable, and there’s not enough experience to be gained by not playing at that position.

[43M]

20 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Burrow tore his ACL behind a horrid line and then lead his team to the super bowl the following year. Manning had 20 picks his rookie season and had a hall of fame career. I, personally, don’t get the “we might break him” thing. If struggles breaks him, he isn’t fit for the league. 

Burrow and Manning were also blue chip, pro ready prospects.   Kenny would benefit from learning from the sidelines much more than they would.

Pickett compares better to guys like Mahomes and Rodgers, who werent necessarily considered "day one ready" players, and benefitted a great deal from sitting out a year.

20 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Your focus is a bad oline, but are cool with Kenny playing 6-8 games in….with the same o-line.

He is saying to give the OLine some time to perhaps gel and come together, rather than throw our rookie QB behind a line that might get him torn up.

You bring up QBs that played immediately and had success...okay...care to go through all the QBs that got torn up behind bad OLines early in their careers and were worse off because of it?    

20 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

You need to know the speed, you need to see the changes, you need the bullets flying, you have to be on the field to gain the experience that makes that knowledge worth while. And that’s the issue with the QB position and practice time. If he isn’t the starter, he doesn’t get reps — and reps are what he needs. 

Obviously that game experience is invaluable, but rookies are still learning and trying to build their confidence.    Starting immediately and having success can obviously build that...but getting destroyed behind a bad line and playing poorly can shatter said confidence.    And yes, players ultimately need to learn to handle and overcome adversity, but Id prefer they be ready than just throwing them into the fire just because you hope it will all work out in the end, but thats not how it works.

In the end, there is really no right or wrong, because no matter what happens, it will always be second guessed after the fact...and there is no way to prove what will actually work better.

What I do know is, we brought in a veteran QB for a reason, and while he may not be that good, if Pickett isnt notably outplaying him, thats who Im going with to start the season.    Id rather him to test out this offense and line early on than our daisy fresh rook.

20 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

IMO, there is no bigger mistake that we could make is year than not having Kenny start at some point. Baring Mitch being so good we decided to extend him or us winning the super bowl,

That would probably be the only way Kenny wouldn't start this year at all....and thats extremely unlikely.

 

20 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

every missed rep for Kenny is a missed opportunity for his development.

Development can and has been stunted and outright ruined for many players.    Tossing a QB in immediately isnt always the best option.

Again, Im not in favor of sitting him just because he is a rookie, but unless he is clearly the best option, I would start Mitch without a second thought.    

If after 4 to 6 weeks, Mitch is looking mediocre and we wanna see what the kid has....great.  At least then, Canada will better understand whats working and whats not given the strengths and weaknesses of our line and skill players, and can hopefully incorporate that when Kenny ultimately DOES start.

20 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

The guy that likely isn’t on this team in 2023 shouldn’t factor into this equation…the only question should be “is Kenny ready?”. 

No, the question is "whose the better QB RIGHT NOW"

If its obviously Kenny....start him.

Otherwise, Im rolling with Mitch early on.

Im not saying Im right or youre wrong....because we cant really know that....but its much easier and alot less downside to go with Mitch early.

if we start Mitch, he struggles, and move to Kenny....then thats moving forward.  No one will bat an eyelash or really second guess that, because Kenny was drafted to be the future.

If we start Kenny and he struggles mightily, and we have to put Mitch in....that makes the front office and coaches look laughably incompetent and very possibly hinders Kennys development.

There are alot of other possible outcomes and shades of gray, but given that Kenny isn't a blue chip prospect and is playing on an offense that still needs tweaking, Id much rather see Trubisky week 1.    This isnt the same offense Ben came into where all he had to do was manage the game....there would be far more pressure on Kenny than Ben.

 

[August4th]

 

[Dcash4]

3 hours ago, 43M said:

Pickett compares better to guys like Mahomes and Rodgers, who werent necessarily considered "day one ready" players, and benefitted a great deal from sitting out a year.

 ….no. Aaron and Pat were both 21 when they were drafted, both underclassman. Both from Non-NFL offenses and combined played in 5 more college games then Kenny did. 

No, those are not similar comparisons. They had tremendous physical tools but questions marks in the game translation. Kenny is nearly the opposite. 
 

3 hours ago, 43M said:

care to go through all the QBs that got torn up behind bad OLines early in their careers and were worse off because of it? 

Is Jameis Winston bad because he played early or because he is bad? Would you be confident to say Darnold was ruined and not just that Darnold is bad? 

Being extremely conservative here: 9 outta 10 guys fail at QB because it’s a ridiculously hard position to play and they can’t live up. Not because they were rushed in the process. Chase Daniel would not star in this league right now despite 10+ years of sitting. 

I just do not see this bogey man you guys do in terms of ruining someone. Is it possible? Sure. But it’s highly unlikely — especially for someone with 50 D1 starts in pro style offense.

Malik needs time because he has never run anything close to an NFL offense or played against high level competition. He doesn’t even have experience working progression reads. Kenny knows and has worked progressions. It’s not about understanding, it’s about “doing”. He needs to face the NFL level and speed — and you cannot….CANNOT…simulate that on the sideline. 

3 hours ago, 43M said:

This isnt the same offense Ben came into where all he had to do was manage the game....there would be far more pressure on Kenny than Ben.

I don’t think that’s true, necessarily. It’s different because Ben played with a killer run game and a tremendous D…but they are not going to ask Kenny (or Mitch) to drop back 50 times a game and out the game on their shoulders. 

This team will be built on run action and the defense…but they will be asked to carry their part of the load in a modern NFL offense. 

3 hours ago, 43M said:

If we start Kenny and he struggles mightily, and we have to put Mitch in....that makes the front office and coaches look laughably incompetent and very possibly hinders Kennys development.

You can find growth in struggles. The issue is when you find no growth. I’m sure you will go back to the blue chip pieces, but Trevor Lawrence had a really rough start, then you saw the strides throughout the year. Now he is prime to take off in year 2. If you deem him ready and Kenny was to play and suck so bad he had to be benched because of lack of growth…I’m more inclined to believe it’s because he can’t cut it in the NFL as a starter

We are not winning the super bowl this year. So I could care less about winning in week 3. I care about the long term part of this evolution on a QB drafted with experience, maximizing the best asset he has of playing on a rookie deal, and trying to be competitive as possible before TJ is over 30 (KP year 3) and Cam is gone. Year 2 being the learning experience at QB isn’t beneficial to the franchise. Kenny needs snaps this year. 

I do not understand defaulting to Mitch for the sake of experience when benching Kenny eliminates his chances to gain any. 

[bigben07MVP]

Quick thoughts after re-watching the game:

- O-Line is going to be a problem. Chuks, DMJ, Dotson all played like crap. Run game was nonexistent 

- Vaughns deserves a spot on the PS, he can play.

- Two weeks in a row, Pickett has been our best QB. Made some sick throws under pressure, a couple that were called back. I keep flip flopping on who I want to start week 1, but Kenny looks good.

- Love Claypool in the slot. He looked good tonight. Him and ‘Muth have the potential to terrorize defenses in the middle of the field, especially with Pickens and DJ drawing a ton of attention outside 

- I think Robinson is more deserving of playing time over Bush. Spillane had a good game, still don’t trust him. Get Devin Bush off the team. At least Robinson will put his hat on a guy

- much less exciting/uneventful game than week 1. The offense is still a work in progress. Our weapons are top notch and I think we will get decent QB play, but the o-line could seriously hold this team back….again.

- We have serious concerns at LB outside of Watt and Jack. Highsmith still dealing with an injury and will he ever be a real difference maker for us? We need to look to add EDGE depth asap.

[August4th]

Would y'all feel comfortable giving Orlando brown a record breaking deal next yr, if kc can't get a deal done. Any other top linemen hitting the market?

[jebrick]

13 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

 ….no. Aaron and Pat were both 21 when they were drafted, both underclassman. Both from Non-NFL offenses and combined played in 5 more college games then Kenny did. 

No, those are not similar comparisons. They had tremendous physical tools but questions marks in the game translation. Kenny is nearly the opposite.

This I would agree with.  Pickett is a 5 year starter in college.  He has 4 years of crappy college experience before it clicked.  Sure looks like it is still clicking.

[warfelg]

4 hours ago, August4th said:

Would y'all feel comfortable giving Orlando brown a record breaking deal next yr, if kc can't get a deal done. Any other top linemen hitting the market?

Andre Dillard has looked better and will be out there and could be had at a discount.  Isaiah Wynn will be out there.

 

We're projected top 10 pick and LT's that could be there:
Paris Johnson

Darnell Wright

Peter Skoronski

I think I rather have any of them.

[jebrick]

I would rather take Trenton Simpson but they will not.

[Big Snack]

How long before killer p's catches on?

[43M]

14 hours ago, warfelg said:

Andre Dillard has looked better and will be out there and could be had at a discount.  Isaiah Wynn will be out there.

 

We're projected top 10 pick and LT's that could be there:
Paris Johnson

Darnell Wright

Peter Skoronski

I think I rather have any of them.

Ill be shocked if we finish top 10.   Thinking 13 to 20 range.

If we do finish with a top 10 pick, it will likely be largely due to our OL, in which case they will likely need to sign 1 or 2 guys plus draft 1 or 2.

[warfelg]

3 hours ago, 43M said:

Ill be shocked if we finish top 10.   Thinking 13 to 20 range.

If we do finish with a top 10 pick, it will likely be largely due to our OL, in which case they will likely need to sign 1 or 2 guys plus draft 1 or 2.

I wouldn’t be shocked with any pick range in the draft this year. 
 

Plus the other unknown. How aggressive is Khan in the draft? 

[43M]

48 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I wouldn’t be shocked with any pick range in the draft this year. 
 

Plus the other unknown. How aggressive is Khan in the draft? 

Next offseason will be quite interesting as we observe the differences between the Khan regime and Kevin Colbert.