Cowboys @ Midgets

[matt79511]

36 minutes ago, Dallas94Ware said:

@Nextyearfordaboyz

Got bored LOL ok so

drafted starters on offense:

Dak, CeeDee, Noah (iffy as he isnt a true starter but ill include him), Schultz, Tyler, Biadasz, Zeke, Martin. Of them, Tyler, Martin, Zeke and Lamb were 1st rounders and not part of what im trying to say - since ive said i wasnt speaking of all the 1st round guys we have held onto and part of what holds us back (overpaying to keep us front loaded because the depth doesnt develop) - and of those remaining, what is it, 1, that was actually picked under Mike? And exactly how good is Biadasz? So inconsistent that we took another mid round Center in hopes of replacing soon, and so iffy that he actually juggled as starter with some vet whos name i cant even remember. 

Now, offensive rotation draftees...Fehoko? Only out there cause of injuries. Hasnt done anything notable. Ferguson? Jurys still out, cant say much on him. Farniok? Going to lose his spot to a 40 year old. 

Defense...drafted starters..

Parsons, Lawrence, LVE, Wilson(only starting cause Kearse went down), Brown, Diggs. Minus the first rounders of Parsons and LVE. And Lawrence was already paid before Mike. Of them, only 1 came here under Mikes tenure.

Rotational guys? Joseph is essentially a gunner on punt teams for a 2nd round pick. Osa has had a couple snaps of semi-note. Gallimore as well, and may actually be turning into a true starter. So theres that. Armstrong? Good rotational guy and do it all defender, okay thats cool. The others? Nothing notable.

So .. thats um.. (counting..) 4 McCarthy era non first round drafted guys actually amounting to something.  And only 1 is a true, week in week out starter. 1 is likely on his way to being. And 1 is, at best, a decent rotation guy who might make a good play or two a month. 

Wow i just depressed myself

37 of 52...but too few of that 37 actually matter. Too many of those 37 are high paid vets which keep this team way too too heavy, usually from the first round as well. Thats way too many 2nd, 3rd. 4th. 5th round picks spent over the last 3 or 4 years that kind of just take up a roster spot, do next to nothing, and get replaced with another who does the same. Part of the draft process and having it be difficult or near impossible to hit on more than 1 or 2 a draft? Maybe. But even a draft day failure should be contributing at least a little to the main units. Ours just...dont

2020 drafted starters: Lamb, Diggs, Biasdaz (3). Rotational/ST contributors: Gallimore (1)

2021 drafted starters: Parsons, Odighizuwa, Bohanna (3). Rotational/ST contributors: Joseph, Golston, Wright, Cox, Mukuamu, Fehoko, Farniok (7)

2022 drafted starters: Smith, Ferguson (2). Rotational/ST contributors: Williams, Tolbert, Bland, Harper (4)

I think you’re mistaken if you think the average team has done nearly this well in the draft over the last 3 years and being way too liberal with the use of the phrase “amounting to something” when so many of these guys are 3 games into their first or second year in the league. I mean it’s just disingenuous not to count Osa and Bohanna as starters nor credit the coaches with guys like Steele (not a draft pick, and ergo, someone Philbin, MM et al had to fight for)

and to return to the original term of consternation, “depth development”… does the staff get no credit for coaxing better play out of incumbent vets like Brown, Brown, Armstrong, and Lewis, and left for dead scrap heap adds like Kearse and Hooker? It would seem to me that what this staff does with its 25-to-29-year-olds and how the skill sets of those players are maximized is more indicative of how well the team is coached than whether or not the 22-year-olds are all consistent every down NFL starters yet. Point blank I think you’re in the wrong here man. It may not last, but right now this team has *so many guys* punching above their weight in terms how they’re performing on the field relative to reasonable expectations/their level(s) of notoriety.

Edited September 28, 2022 by matt79511

[Dallas94Ware]

9 hours ago, matt79511 said:

2020 drafted starters: Lamb, Diggs, Biasdaz (3). Rotational/ST contributors: Gallimore (1)

2021 drafted starters: Parsons, Odighizuwa, Bohanna (3). Rotational/ST contributors: Joseph, Golston, Wright, Cox, Mukuamu, Fehoko, Farniok (7)

2022 drafted starters: Smith, Ferguson (2). Rotational/ST contributors: Williams, Tolbert, Bland, Harper (4)

I think you’re mistaken if you think the average team has done nearly this well in the draft over the last 3 years and being way too liberal with the use of the phrase “amounting to something” when so many of these guys are 3 games into their first or second year in the league. I mean it’s just disingenuous not to count Osa and Bohanna as starters nor credit the coaches with guys like Steele (not a draft pick, and ergo, someone Philbin, MM et al had to fight for)

and to return to the original term of consternation, “depth development”… does the staff get no credit for coaxing better play out of incumbent vets like Brown, Brown, Armstrong, and Lewis, and left for dead scrap heap adds like Kearse and Hooker? It would seem to me that what this staff does with its 25-to-29-year-olds and how the skill sets of those players are maximized is more indicative of how well the team is coached than whether or not the 22-year-olds are all consistent every down NFL starters yet. Point blank I think you’re in the wrong here man. It may not last, but right now this team has *so many guys* punching above their weight in terms how they’re performing on the field relative to reasonable expectations/their level(s) of notoriety.

The way I look at DT, there is no direct starters because we have so many guys swapping in and out. And I dont see Ferguson as a fullback/2ndTE checking in now and again as a starter either. But even taking them as such the way you are...

The roster still remains top heavy. All of those picks on the roster, 37 of them, are not truly taking the field in a meaningful way. When they said on the broadcast 37 guys are drafted players, it sounds misleading, you know? As if 37 guys are really helping this team...and reality is, they arent. And a good chunk of that 37 are high paid vets (Gallup, Zeke, Dak, martin, Tyron, Lawrence etc). 

Im not saying the team hasnt overall drafted well compared to other teams. But typically you see those 2nd 3rd 4th round picks on other teams doing more for their team than ours. Maybe they dont start. But are furthet along by years 2 and 3 that they arent relegated to special teams work for a second round pick. 

My point was, that 37, it sounds so impressive. But too few of that 37 actually make a game to game difference. Can you honestly say outside of the first rounders, that many of those you listed make a difference for this team? But when yoi take a guy on the second day of the draft, you usually expect them to develop into something that does indeed make a difference. Its cool they find some niche on the team..gunner, backup G/C, 4th or 5th corner, 4th WR when 2 WRs get hurt... but for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th round pick even..is that really the bar you set for them, that playing the gunner for a 2nd round pick is totally fine? That dropped balls and being the 4th guy when 2 starters are out is fine from a 3rd round pick? To me, its not. And it falls on the staff to question why these players arent ready to do more.

[matt79511]

 

1 hour ago, Dallas94Ware said:

Can you honestly say outside of the first rounders, that many of those you listed make a difference for this team?

Yeah, uh, I think you can? Let’s forget the ‘22 class for now, it’s too early, although we are at least getting snaps from guys besides Smith.

- Osa, Bohanna, Golston and Gallimore have totally revamped our DL depth and are allowing us send to better/deeper waves of rushers at the opponent than we had under Marinelli. I would expect Sam Williams to join this list soon but he’s not really there yet, though he is at least playing.

- Diggs has obviously been a revelation. IMO, that guy could’ve gone to so many teams and never turned into the player he is here. Steep development curve there

- Biasdaz is fine, which “makes a difference” at center, a position where being awful can tank your whole game plan.

And again, you’re giving the current staff no credit for developing/making better use of incumbents like both Browns, Lewis, Armstrong, etc. while giving them all the culpability for not having drafted any superstars yet (so long as you ignore the first rounders and Diggs). You’ve also yet to offer an explanation as to how the ST unit has turned around so substantially, a telltale sign that the team is fairly deep and well-coached compared to years past.

I think you’re fixating too much on Joseph being a bust, because giving the staff any credit for the CB they selected in the 2nd one year earlier doesn’t fit the narrative. Joseph is just one pick out of 27 under the current regime, and at least he’s starting to get in there and play a bit. Maybe, just maybe, this roster is actually much deeper than you insist they are? If this were the ‘11-‘13 Cowboys losing multiple OLs and their starting QB before the end of the first game, pretty sure we’d be 0-3. Instead we’re 2-1, because the offense, comprised largely of backups and mid-to-late rounders, is hanging in there and sustaining just enough drives, and the defense, which has a few superstars but is also loaded with 3rd-6th rounders and guys on mid-range/low-end vet contracts, is playing as well as any Dallas defense has in decades.

Either this team has more depth and/or is better coached than you insist, to argue neither is true makes no sense.

Edited September 28, 2022 by matt79511

[Nextyearfordaboyz]

15 hours ago, Dallas94Ware said:

@Nextyearfordaboyz

Got bored LOL ok so

drafted starters on offense:

Dak, CeeDee, Noah (iffy as he isnt a true starter but ill include him), Schultz, Tyler, Biadasz, Zeke, Martin. Of them, Tyler, Martin, Zeke and Lamb were 1st rounders and not part of what im trying to say - since ive said i wasnt speaking of all the 1st round guys we have held onto and part of what holds us back (overpaying to keep us front loaded because the depth doesnt develop) - and of those remaining, what is it, 1, that was actually picked under Mike? And exactly how good is Biadasz? So inconsistent that we took another mid round Center in hopes of replacing soon, and so iffy that he actually juggled as starter with some vet whos name i cant even remember. 

Now, offensive rotation draftees...Fehoko? Only out there cause of injuries. Hasnt done anything notable. Ferguson? Jurys still out, cant say much on him. Farniok? Going to lose his spot to a 40 year old. 

Defense...drafted starters..

Parsons, Lawrence, LVE, Wilson(only starting cause Kearse went down), Brown, Diggs. Minus the first rounders of Parsons and LVE. And Lawrence was already paid before Mike. Of them, only 1 came here under Mikes tenure.

Rotational guys? Joseph is essentially a gunner on punt teams for a 2nd round pick. Osa has had a couple snaps of semi-note. Gallimore as well, and may actually be turning into a true starter. So theres that. Armstrong? Good rotational guy and do it all defender, okay thats cool. The others? Nothing notable.

So .. thats um.. (counting..) 4 McCarthy era non first round drafted guys actually amounting to something.  And only 1 is a true, week in week out starter. 1 is likely on his way to being. And 1 is, at best, a decent rotation guy who might make a good play or two a month. 

Wow i just depressed myself

37 of 52...but too few of that 37 actually matter. Too many of those 37 are high paid vets which keep this team way too too heavy, usually from the first round as well. Thats way too many 2nd, 3rd. 4th. 5th round picks spent over the last 3 or 4 years that kind of just take up a roster spot, do next to nothing, and get replaced with another who does the same. Part of the draft process and having it be difficult or near impossible to hit on more than 1 or 2 a draft? Maybe. But even a draft day failure should be contributing at least a little to the main units. Ours just...dont

I am exhausted from trying to parse this, but I’ve come to the conclusion that this was actually directed at @matt79511, which is why I’m not understanding what is happening. 

Godspeed, Matt.

[Dallas94Ware]

4 hours ago, matt79511 said:

 

Yeah, uh, I think you can? Let’s forget the ‘22 class for now, it’s too early, although we are at least getting snaps from guys besides Smith.

- Osa, Bohanna, Golston and Gallimore have totally revamped our DL depth and are allowing us send to better/deeper waves of rushers at the opponent than we had under Marinelli. I would expect Sam Williams to join this list soon but he’s not really there yet, though he is at least playing.

- Diggs has obviously been a revelation. IMO, that guy could’ve gone to so many teams and never turned into the player he is here. Steep development curve there

- Biasdaz is fine, which “makes a difference” at center, a position where being awful can tank your whole game plan.

And again, you’re giving the current staff no credit for developing/making better use of incumbents like both Browns, Lewis, Armstrong, etc. while giving them all the culpability for not having drafted any superstars yet (so long as you ignore the first rounders and Diggs). You’ve also yet to offer an explanation as to how the ST unit has turned around so substantially, a telltale sign that the team is fairly deep and well-coached compared to years past.

I think you’re fixating too much on Joseph being a bust, because giving the staff any credit for the CB they selected in the 2nd one year earlier doesn’t fit the narrative. Joseph is just one pick out of 27 under the current regime, and at least he’s starting to get in there and play a bit. Maybe, just maybe, this roster is actually much deeper than you insist they are? If this were the ‘11-‘13 Cowboys losing multiple OLs and their starting QB before the end of the first game, pretty sure we’d be 0-3. Instead we’re 2-1, because the offense, comprised largely of backups and mid-to-late rounders, is hanging in there and sustaining just enough drives, and the defense, which has a few superstars but is also loaded with 3rd-6th rounders and guys on mid-range/low-end vet contracts, is playing as well as any Dallas defense has in decades.

Either this team has more depth and/or is better coached than you insist, to argue neither is true makes no sense.

Its not a narrative Im trying to create. They are my legitamate feelings on the matter, because it has bugged me for years now how this team has constantly been so top heavy...and then yiu see that 2016 or 17 Eagles squad win a title with Vaitai playing LT, and all these fill ins on the D Line who really were not anything special, but were great as a TEAM of nobodies working together. Our teams never achieved that for ages now, because we were alwsys so top heavy with talent. 

I will say that in some regards I do agree with you! The progress Diggs had made year 1 to year 2 was eye popping. He looks far more poised for actual defense this year too, not just gaudy stat lines. And Gallimore, there is something to him. Bohanna i have praised as early ad this offseason (in the draft thread when i questioned why everyone was like "Finally a run stopper at DT!" over Ridgeway, when I assured them Bohanna had Ferguson(1990s Jet and one or two yesr stop gap Cowboy in early 2000s) type potential as an inside guy. So i do, indeed man, hear your point and agree to an extent.

And I will also add, reading your thoughts have cheered up mine a little bit.

I still just dont fully agree on the progress of the majority of these guys though. And its not even about bust or not. Because you can select a draft bust and still get him on the field at least trying to contribute and get better. But too many of that 37 dont get that chance. Is it because they are that bad a bust? maybe. Is it because the staff hasnt really helped them get to a point where they earn a chance to go out there? Maybe. But i do know that hearing 37 of 52 are drafted players is a very misleading statement. Because too many of that 37 are not real contributors to this squad, and are just keeping a seat warm until the next set of mid round selections who wont develop can take that seat.

Who was it... @WizardHawk? That i spoke about the coaching staff with and the lack of development for young OLs under Philbin specifically. Yesh I think it was him. Why dont you chime in a bit with your thoughts bud. Love to add more fingertips to the debate!

[Dallas94Ware]

6 hours ago, Nextyearfordaboyz said:

I am exhausted from trying to parse this, but I’ve come to the conclusion that this was actually directed at @matt79511, which is why I’m not understanding what is happening. 

Godspeed, Matt.

Oh, its possible man. If so. Sorry. It just feels good to talk ball again on the regular.

For the record im not arguing my point, i just dont get much opportunity to talk Cowboys up here in new york city and now that i am healthy again and have the free time, it feels good to talk about the team I love.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Dallas94Ware

[quiller]

What a interesting discussion.  Will ignore first rounders.  
I will start 2019. done extremely well with development of 4th rd pollard and 6th round Wilson. Both were huge in our last win. Sure fail on our 2nd and 3rd rd pics

2020. Uh 2nd Diggs 3rd Gallimore 4th Biadaz all huge contributors 

2021 not as splash as 2021 but a lot of depth with Osa Golston Cox Bohanna how Joseph goes will tell about this class being an elite one but this will be the year of Parsons so…

2022. Williams tolbert ferguson all made the field i our first three sure time will tell with these three but looking positive to start. If Waletzko is a solid back up and Clark supplants Barr next year then this year is also a huge positive draft as well

i would say our developent seems good and I agree what. We did to turn around Kearse and yes Brown x 2. But let us not forget Armstrong who has been a huge hit so far.  And we also redirected Neal’s career. Also

[D82]

 

[WizardHawk]

17 hours ago, Dallas94Ware said:

Who was it... @WizardHawk? That i spoke about the coaching staff with and the lack of development for young OLs under Philbin specifically. Yesh I think it was him. Why dont you chime in a bit with your thoughts bud. Love to add more fingertips to the debate!

Might have been me, but honestly don’t remember.

I think it’s reasonably fair to have some criticism of Philbin. I think it’s also fair to give him some credit in the development of Smith and Steele. I know both put in work with Manyweather, but can’t say one way or the other that their development is all on his tutelage. As for the others, I think their play parallels their draft position. Bladiasz has probably maxed his 4th rd draft potential. Farinok plays like an UDFA and Ball plays like a guy who missed his rookie season due to injury.  I’d like them to be better. But, im not going to entirely pin that on Philbin. Some guys just aren’t meant to be better. As for CW doing so well currently in Miami…I guess I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop. He wasn’t as bad as credited in Dallas, but a longs ways away from very good/elite he’s been this far.

[Dallas94Ware]

3 hours ago, D82 said:

 

This is the point Ive been trying to make in other threads. You cant compare what Dak does to what Rush is doing..because Dak, being more physically gifted, is asked to do so very much more, and against much tougher teams than the Giants (tied with the Jets for the worst record over the last 4 or 5 years) or Bengals (Had one good season in how long, on the miracle deep throw and catching of Burrow to Chase with questionable D and no protection--not sustainable!). 

That doesnt mean the staff shouldnt learn some lessons from what they are doing with Rush, though. However itd be wise for them to also keep in mind that against good teams this kind of offense and style of winning is not sustainable, either.

Theres a reason its usually the top talent passers win the titles - because at some point, your QB needs to be gifted enough to make some incredible throws. Thats not Cooper Rush.

[DaBoys]

8 hours ago, D82 said:

 

I agree we need to dumb down the offense for Dak. If we had an elite QB then we could open it up, but we need to go back to 2016.