GB offense issues

[cannondale]

1 minute ago, Smidgeon said:

If 3 receivers are covered by 5 defenders, there should be 2 other pass catchers in 1:1 situations or better. 

Jones and Tonyan chipped. The rush was home before Jones even got his head around. Rodgers threw it at his feet

[PackFan13]

19 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Meanwhile, MVS has 22 receptions for 369 yards.

Gute is an actual idiot. If you’re not going to make a move to replace Adams with an elite WR, you’ve got to keep players Rodgers is familiar with.

Cobb, Lazard, MVS and Doubs I bet we’d be a lot better right now.

MVS would probably have 600 yards receiving on this team by now and we wouldn’t look so terrible.

MVS is overpaid and they clearly regret that pay day. JuJu is who we should have snagged. Half the price and twice the player. Literally what you want on the field from a vet wide out. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by PackFan13

[craig]

14 minutes ago, cannondale said:

What's the % of passes within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage ?? Makes it awfully easy to cover guys. Gilbert Brown could play CB against the Packers

Yes.  When everything is horizontal, how hard is it for defenders to cover and to understand what's coming?  It's easy.  

This is the confluence of multiple factors.  It comes down significantly to the o-line.  If you don't trust your o-line to protect, you've got to have short-quick stuff.  Why should defenses waste time covering deeper if they know everything is quick?  MLF obviously doesn't trust his line, for very good reasons. Especially on Sunday, he was wanting **really** quick throws.   Can I blame him?  

Lots of the passes are "run solutions"; I don't expect complex plays on those?  

MrBobGray notes the horizontal design.  A horizontal design, without o-line blocking and without speed, invites the defense to come close to the line and stretch wide.  

Bad run-blocking, bad pass-blocking, short quick largely horizontal passes, all of that makes it kinda easy on defenses. 

I'd like to imagine how it might look with good blocking?  

[incognito_man]

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

Meanwhile, MVS has 22 receptions for 369 yards.

Gute is an actual idiot. If you’re not going to make a move to replace Adams with an elite WR, you’ve got to keep players Rodgers is familiar with.

Cobb, Lazard, MVS and Doubs I bet we’d be a lot better right now.

MVS would probably have 600 yards receiving on this team by now and we wouldn’t look so terrible.

Ew. No way. MVS contract for 22 catches?

[packfanfb]

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

Meanwhile, MVS has 22 receptions for 369 yards.

Gute is an actual idiot. If you’re not going to make a move to replace Adams with an elite WR, you’ve got to keep players Rodgers is familiar with.

Cobb, Lazard, MVS and Doubs I bet we’d be a lot better right now.

MVS would probably have 600 yards receiving on this team by now and we wouldn’t look so terrible.

It's ironic some are saying that just adding a WR won't change anything because of the other problems we have, but does anyone really believe that if this team just had Adams, Cobb, Lazard right now that we would be any worse than 5-2? Just with Adams alone, I think we beat the Giants and Washington. Maybe still lose to Minny and the Jets based on how those games went. But the other two losses were so close that even sustaining one or two more drives was probably the difference and that happens with 17. Doesn't mean we still wouldn't be a flawed team, but we'd look better in the standings. 

[packfanfb]

1 hour ago, PackFan13 said:

MVS is overpaid and they clearly regret that pay day. JuJu is who we should have snagged. Half the price and twice the player. Literally what you want on the field from a vet wide out. 

Juju is a good player but thrives the most in the MOF from the slot. Rodgers would have to attack the MOF better than what he has over the past few years. 

[beveaux1]

1 hour ago, Smidgeon said:

If 3 receivers are covered by 5 defenders, there should be 2 other pass catchers in 1:1 situations or better. 

No.  We're only sending 3 receivers out.  Our line needs TE and back help to block the rush.

[packfanfb]

1 hour ago, MrBobGray said:

 

• 2017 Rams - 9th in rushing attempts
• 2018 Titans - 9th in rushing attempts
• 2019 Packers - 13th in rushing attempts
• 2020 Packers - 12th in rushing attempts
• 2021 Packers - 17th in rushing attempts
• 2022 Packers - 21st in rushing attempts

 

Are these numbers "overall" or percentage based because a large problem our offense has right now is the fact that they aren't running very many plays in total. If your offense is only getting 45 or so plays total, obviously the rushing attempts are going to be down overall compared to teams who may be running 60 plays+ per game. Chicken or egg situation where you ask which one is causing the other...

[NFLGURU]

1 hour ago, craig said:

Yes.  When everything is horizontal, how hard is it for defenders to cover and to understand what's coming?  It's easy.  

This is the confluence of multiple factors.  It comes down significantly to the o-line.  If you don't trust your o-line to protect, you've got to have short-quick stuff.  Why should defenses waste time covering deeper if they know everything is quick?  MLF obviously doesn't trust his line, for very good reasons. Especially on Sunday, he was wanting **really** quick throws.   Can I blame him?  

Lots of the passes are "run solutions"; I don't expect complex plays on those?  

MrBobGray notes the horizontal design.  A horizontal design, without o-line blocking and without speed, invites the defense to come close to the line and stretch wide.  

Bad run-blocking, bad pass-blocking, short quick largely horizontal passes, all of that makes it kinda easy on defenses. 

I'd like to imagine how it might look with good blocking?  

Exactly.  You don't have a deep threat to take pressure off.  Defenses are coming up to the line and putting the squeeze on our OL.  Blitzing and handling the run.  MVS did a lot for this team keeping defenses honest.  Watson needs to become that guy.  Until they get that guy, they will come after Rodgers and make him throw to guys who can't get open quickly.

 

 

[squire12]

2 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

Not sure I would even be comfortable saying the Packers are running MLF's scheme anymore.  Let's look at his general usage of the run since he was OC of the Rams in 2017

• 2017 Rams - 9th in rushing attempts
• 2018 Titans - 9th in rushing attempts
• 2019 Packers - 13th in rushing attempts
• 2020 Packers - 12th in rushing attempts
• 2021 Packers - 17th in rushing attempts
• 2022 Packers - 21st in rushing attempts

Which tracks with the general impression of watching the team.  MLF's entire scheme is predicated around stretching the defense horizontally using the run game; it's sort of a hybrid of McVay's "Never not 11 personnel" approach that puts defenders in alignments they aren't used to playing and Shanahan's "**** it 11 FBs" approach that makes it hard to match personnel for the DC.  Packers personnel grouping usage is a half and half mix between the Rams and the 49ers for the same reason: as an example, Rams used 11 personnel on 86% of total plays in 2021, 49ers 48%, and the Packers used it 61%. 

MLF's ideal offense puts stress on defenders laterally, with a lot of mixed tight/wide alignment, lots of motion, and a liberal use of TEs and big receivers in the slot.  It's tough as a defender, because it really makes it difficult to A) be sure of your assignment, as motion and offensive alignments can muddy the waters right up to the snap, and B) actually defend all the possible play designs at once.  If you're the outside edge guy and you're expecting a down block from the TE and they instead run away from you, it's hard to give aggressive pursuit because you were getting ready to anchor and nobody hit you.  Then the next time they line up in this same formation, you read it correctly and pursue hard only to find out it was split zone this time and the cut block absolutely wipes you out.  The next time, all three of those options are in your head and your hesitation kills your first step because oops its a passing play. 

The problem is you have to commit to this for it to work.  There's no point setting up future plays if you never run them.  Rodgers's need to control the game flow and have the ball in his hands means they rarely if ever set anything up.  This is part of why the short passing game isn't working as a run game replacement right now; it doesn't bring in any uncertainty or alter the defensive game plan at all.  Every single defense gets to play the run on the way to the QB; there's literally nothing to fear from a counter-punch angle.  Rodgers wants so badly to be able to take control of the game, but his attempts to do it are killing the offense because this group is not built to go spread formation shotgun and let Aaron read it pre-snap.  There's not near enough chemistry with this receiver group to be sure you're making the same reads from QB to WR, and most of their best players shine more in the run game anyway.

The team 100% needs to actually run play sequences that put the brakes on the pass rush, and frankly probably run more man blocking in the run game because right now their guys can't find work for **** when they run zone. 

Feels like defenses are aligning in pre- snap to get Rodgers to check into things they want run at them.  Minimal run plays and a bunch of short stuff.

[MacReady]

32 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

It's ironic some are saying that just adding a WR won't change anything because of the other problems we have, but does anyone really believe that if this team just had Adams, Cobb, Lazard right now that we would be any worse than 5-2? Just with Adams alone, I think we beat the Giants and Washington. Maybe still lose to Minny and the Jets based on how those games went. But the other two losses were so close that even sustaining one or two more drives was probably the difference and that happens with 17. Doesn't mean we still wouldn't be a flawed team, but we'd look better in the standings. 

And our defense would have significantly less short time on the field, too.

This team is 6-1 with Davante or a commensurate replacement.

[cannondale]

2 hours ago, Norm said:

Schemed those other two open. Rodgers threw to the covered guys

 

There were no other guys. Jones and Tonyan blocked

[MrBobGray]

This Packers offense is currently trapped in a schism between two very different ways of approaching offense.  Rodgers wants to play a tempo passing game from shotgun; both the dropback and play action generally happen a lot faster from shotgun, which means your QB is in position to throw the ball more quickly and the rush is coming from a steeper angle.  But there's more: defenders get the answer to the run/pass key much more quickly, which means less false steps and the defenders are quicker to turn to pass responsibilities.  This might seem like a negative, but one offshoot is that the picture moves less in general.  There's less distortion of the pre-snap read, in other words.  So a QB like Rodgers who loves to flow chart his play off his pre-snap read, this guarantees that the picture post-snap is as close to the one pre-snap as possible. 

MLF wants the QB under center, because it stretches that handoff distance and keeps ball action closer to the LoS, where it's harder to be sure of who's got the ball with the wash of bodies in the way.  It lets you get maximum value out of a steady diet of motion and compact formations; defense wants to bring bodies into the box to combat the mass of blockers, but it increases the chances of misdirection causing your own defenders to collide and get in each other's way.  Off of that you run things like split zone, with a TE cutting the backside pursuit, or maybe he fakes it and runs a post and the safety is late seeing it because they still have their eyes in the backfield.

They essentially want to play exactly the opposite.  If you're wondering how this worked so well at first, the biggest reason of several is a guy who's now in Las Vegas.  Rodgers was willing to commit to the LaFleur system as long Adams got plenty of snaps lined out wide where he and Aaron could scheme up plays on the fly.  Adams is the perfect receiver for Rodgers in a lot of ways, because he wins so quickly he can even get open on a 9 route in the time a shotgun PA fake takes.  For most receivers, the PA is done before they finish the stem of anything downfield, so the safeties are turning eyes to coverage before they even break.  But not Adams; he was two steps behind the defender by the time the ball got to Aaron off the snap, let alone PA. 

But Adams is gone and the Packers don't have the horses to win off the snap consistently anymore.  Rodgers isn't getting his preferred wide open receivers as much.  But just as bad, he also can't evade the rush anymore.  One of the other big issues with shotgun is defenders can line up wide to give themselves better rush angles; I swear at time you see defenders playing the Packers lining up in such a wide 9 they're more of a hand down nickle.  This can be negated by stepping up into the pocket, but if your interior OL aren't great pass blockers (COUGH COUGH) there's often nowhere to go and you're between a rock and a hard place.  If you're fast and reactive enough though, you can just evade the rush instead, and since you're back from the line of scrimmage yourself you have a more direct visual awareness of the rush.  If you try that though, and you're not fast or reactive enough (COUGH COUGH), you end up getting caught from behind or just barely escaping to throw it away.

None of the things Rodgers likes to do at QB really work well with this team right now.  But the things this team does really well, he is actually quite exceptional at himself.  His ball handling skills are sensational, all obvious jokes aside and feel free to mentally fill in your favorite.  But until he can find a way to meet the talent on this team where it is this really can't get better.

Edited October 28, 2022 by MrBobGray

[minnypackerfan]

24 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

This Packers offense is currently trapped in a schism between two very different ways of approaching offense.  Rodgers wants to play a tempo passing game from shotgun; both the dropback and play action generally happen a lot faster from shotgun, which means your QB is in position to throw the ball more quickly and the rush is coming from a steeper angle.  But there's more: defenders get the answer to the run/pass key much more quickly, which means less false steps and the defenders are quicker to turn to pass responsibilities.  This might seem like a negative, but one offshoot is that the picture moves less in general.  There's less distortion of the pre-snap read, in other words.  So a QB like Rodgers who loves to flow chart his play off his pre-snap read, this guarantees that the picture post-snap is as close to the one pre-snap as possible. 

MLF wants the QB under center, because it stretches that handoff distance and keeps ball action closer to the LoS, where it's harder to be sure of who's got the ball with the wash of bodies in the way.  It lets you get maximum value out of a steady diet of motion and compact formations; defense wants to bring bodies into the box to combat the mass of blockers, but it increases the chances of misdirection causing your own defenders to collide and get in each other's way.  Off of that you run things like split zone, with a TE cutting the backside pursuit, or maybe he fakes it and runs a post and the safety is late seeing it because they still have their eyes in the backfield.

They essentially want to play exactly the opposite.  If you're wondering how this worked so well at first, the biggest reason of several is a guy who's now in Las Vegas.  Rodgers was willing to commit to the LaFleur system as long Adams got plenty of snaps lined out wide where he and Aaron could scheme up plays on the fly.  Adams is the perfect receiver for Rodgers in a lot of ways, because he wins so quickly he can even get open on a 9 route in the time a shotgun PA fake takes.  For most receivers, the PA is done before they finish the stem of anything downfield, so the safeties are turning eyes to coverage before they even break.  But not Adams; he was two steps behind the defender by the time the ball got to Aaron off the snap, let alone PA. 

But Adams is gone and the Packers don't have the horses to win off the snap consistently anymore.  Rodgers isn't getting his preferred wide open receivers as much.  But just as bad, he also can't evade the rush anymore.  One of the other big issues with shotgun is defenders can line up wide to give themselves better rush angles; I swear at time you see defenders playing the Packers lining up in such a wide 9 they're more of a hand down nickle.  This can be negated by stepping up into the pocket, but if your interior OL aren't great pass blockers (COUGH COUGH) there's often nowhere to go and you're between a rock and a hard place.  If you're fast and reactive enough though, you can just evade the rush instead, and since you're back from the line of scrimmage yourself you have a more direct visual awareness of the rush.  If you try that though, and you're not fast or reactive enough (COUGH COUGH), you end up getting caught from behind or just barely escaping to throw it away.

None of the things Rodgers likes to do at QB really work well with this team right now.  But the things this team does really well, he is actually quite exceptional at himself.  His ball handling skills are sensational, all obvious jokes aside and feel free to mentally fill in your favorite.  But until he can find a way to meet the talent on this team where it is this really can't get better.

That means of course Rodgers adapting to the talent this team has.  I wish that could happen, but Rodgers is kind of hard wired into doing things his way.  From my own view, the frustrating thing about this offense is our very slow pace of play.  We almost always take 35 or more seconds off the play clock between plays except for the last 2 minutes of each half.  It would be nice to see us get to the line of scrimmage quicker and just snap the ball. Give the defense something to think about.

Edited October 28, 2022 by minnypackerfan

[squire12]

Just now, minnypackerfan said:

That means of course Rodgers adapting to the talent this team has.  I wish that could happen, but Rodgers is kind of hard wired into doing things his way.  From my own view, the frustrating thing this offense is our very slow pace of play.  We almost always take 35 or more seconds off the play clock between plays except for the last 2 minutes of each half.  It would be nice to see us get to the line of scrimmage quicker and just snap the ball. Give the defense something to think about.

That has been the process well before MLF.