State of the Steelers

[warfelg]

15 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Big part of this for me is that I think we need to do both at DL (FA and draft). I don't think we can make a small investment and think the draft completes it. Cam is getting older, Leal is likely a tweener, Loudermilk isn't that guy, Adams is okay depth, and then everyone else is a FA. I am not comfortable with any of those guys even playing a key rotational piece right now. Cam is the only one I feel comfortable with as a starter at a position that will need 2/3 bodies at a time. 

If 25 year old Da'Ron Payne doesn't get tagged, he is my #1. Hargrave is right up there. 

It's going to be a Baskin Robbins flavor choice, but ILB does not move the needle for me. We can make up for weakness there, but we can't get by with weakness on the DL and any weakness there exacerbates other issues. Edmunds is a nice player, but not worth $15M if he gets up that high.

Paying for a top ILB with a meh/okay DL is like owning a Ferrari but living on a street with 1,000 potholes. Great to have, but you can't experience it at its height without a paved road. So, IMO, we should pave the road first. I'd personally build the interior and if I got past the draft/into the season and still felt like we needed impact at ILB, I'd call up the Colts and inquire about Shaq or the Bucs and buy low on Devin White. 

I think I didn’t do a great job of expressing what I meant by small investment.

What I’m thinking is:

Would you rather go sign Payne to a 4 year deal, draft Simpson in the 1st, draft Zacch Pickens in the 4th, sign Spillane to a 3 year deal

OR

Go sign Tremaine Edmunds to a 4 year deal, draft Bresee/Ika in the 17/32 area, and sign Poona Ford to a 2/3 year deal, draft Payton Wilson in the 4th

I think both combinations are nice, and it’s two different ways to get there by utilizing the draft and FA together to complement each other.

 

[3rivers]

3 minutes ago, jebrick said:

The Draft is weak in ILB/off-ball LBs this year.  Do you over draft?

now IDL is not a great one either but it is deeper than ILB

NO

 

never overdraft, thats what colbert did too many times, reaching etc.

If the pick falls to us, then consider. If not, this is where UFA or stop gap UFA helps. Sign UFA to 1 year deal, and if he does well, then keep the player and sign to a newer  deal for a few years.  L. David would be much less costly than Edmunds, and David is still top  notch and won't cost as much due to age (hows that fair - don't ask me) .  Just one example. I would like to see how R.Evans or KVN does here, so there are 3 players that I know of off the top of my suspect memory of old age 

I would rather take a chance on mid priced UFA for a year at ILB  and then  improve the trenches, thats where it is at with this team lacking there.  Perhaps the draft class next year will be good?  Or you could always try a trade for the ILB, but don't get desperate and overpay, overtrade or overdraft - those days are gone (or lets hope they are). If they keep Bush,  then add that to the canada effect for more fail. canada is what will cost this team anyways, so not sure how far the team will go in spite of him. 

If you aren't sure you will get the proper players in the draft (because there aren't many at the position of need)  and have them contribute right away year 1 at a high level,  then go for UFA with proven vet.  The days of overdrafting and redshirting rookies are over. 

There are always value vets out there that are capable of 1 or 2 year deals that can be the stop gap. Eagles got Suh, Joseph for example.  And they already had pro bowl starters but got these proven vets anyways.  They got Quinn at DE when they already had quality players there as well.  Chargers had KVN play well on the outside for Bosa is another example.

what if we played KP all season and TJ was healthy , we make the playoffs and go from there.  Would the need at ILB be as important as  CB (if Burrow or Mahomes lit up the secondary) or the trenches if we got ran over by Eagle, 49ers, KC or even Cinci now that they got the run game going.

while it would be nice to have the ILB of choice, there are other areas of need  that will weigh more heavily IMO.  If you could imagine the difference between Dotson and say having DeCastro type OG on every snap  for KP and the run game.  Or a force inside next to Cam and ready to take Cam's place if he retires.  Then consider injuries in the trenches, we had TJ go down and that was a major loss. There is no depth on either side, a major issue because injuries are a part of this game. 

If you can draft a Shazier type player somehow , then it might be worth it. I just see too many other issues that are more important.  I miss seeing a player like Shazier at iLB, but the game has changed and those types of ILB are rare to begin with. 

Line of scrimmage affects every snap. Start there, work your way out once that is set. If starting with a new rookie QB, it's preferred to have that in place to give him the best chance.  What if Moore or Chuks got hurt last year? 

I'm looking forward to what Khan does, feel much more optimistic as opposed to colbert due to his duds in RD1 on defence over the recent years.  But wait and see. I liked the KP pick though, we have a QB so colbert did the right on that RD1 pick. 

 

[warfelg]

 

[August4th]

we were a top 10 team in dvoa after the bye(which is apparently a very important stat) 11th on offense and 6th on defense. if that carries over to next yr with more talent added on..we might have something here.

[Dcash4]

4 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I think I didn’t do a great job of expressing what I meant by small investment.

What I’m thinking is:

Would you rather go sign Payne to a 4 year deal, draft Simpson in the 1st, draft Zacch Pickens in the 4th, sign Spillane to a 3 year deal

OR

Go sign Tremaine Edmunds to a 4 year deal, draft Bresee/Ika in the 17/32 area, and sign Poona Ford to a 2/3 year deal, draft Payton Wilson in the 4th

I think both combinations are nice, and it’s two different ways to get there by utilizing the draft and FA together to complement each other.

 

I don't know draf players that well, so the exercise doesn't do much for me to be able to pick. But the part of it I do know is that I don't value high priced FA or highly drafted ILBers. They just don't seem to move the needle vs their investment. Roquan is probably the best drafted ILB since Kuechly in 2012 and there isn't a lot of history of ILBers being paid big dollars in FA and making huge impact. (not counting Micah as he rushes so heavily). 

IMO, you can get by going dirt cheap at ILBer and piecing the position group together with a mix of instincts, athletics, and sub packages...but you can never get away with having a mediocre DL. 

My ideal offseason would have us netting a top starting DL in FA, drafting one in the first two picks who could be the 3rd/4th guy and having a second drafted DL in the 3rd/4th who is more of a niche player (NT/Rush) with some upside.  I want this position completely transformed so we can maximize TJ, Highsmith, and Cam over the next few years. 

And I won't make another post, but I saw your share of the twitter stuff and I cannot begin to express how much I will hate the "Run it back" based on the back half of the season. 

 

[warfelg]

3 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I don't know draf players that well, so the exercise doesn't do much for me to be able to pick. But the part of it I do know is that I don't value high priced FA or highly drafted ILBers. They just don't seem to move the needle vs their investment. Roquan is probably the best drafted ILB since Kuechly in 2012 and there isn't a lot of history of ILBers being paid big dollars in FA and making huge impact. (not counting Micah as he rushes so heavily). 

IMO, you can get by going dirt cheap at ILBer and piecing the position group together with a mix of instincts, athletics, and sub packages...but you can never get away with having a mediocre DL. 

My ideal offseason would have us netting a top starting DL in FA, drafting one in the first two picks who could be the 3rd/4th guy and having a second drafted DL in the 3rd/4th who is more of a niche player (NT/Rush) with some upside.  I want this position completely transformed so we can maximize TJ, Highsmith, and Cam over the next few years. 

And I won't make another post, but I saw your share of the twitter stuff and I cannot begin to express how much I will hate the "Run it back" based on the back half of the season. 

 

Personally - I don’t think either option is wrong or right. I think it’s just what you like. Edmunds/Ford would shore up run game more than Payne/Simpson because Simpson is more raw. 
 

I think it’s all of a matter of do you feel better about getting the LBer via the draft or the OL? Locked on just made a great point today: do they make the ILB investment because it’s been a dearth of stop gap signings? The stop gap signings on DL seemed to work much better than ILB. 
 

Weidl has the history of DL via draft, LB via FA/trade. That’s why I think they’ll sign someone. 

[warfelg]

 

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, August4th said:

we were a top 10 team in dvoa after the bye(which is apparently a very important stat) 11th on offense and 6th on defense. if that carries over to next yr with more talent added on..we might have something here.

we could , but when will the canada effect take over? Thats the main issue with this team right now, the OC playcalling.  wait and see is all we can do.  The team was better in the last half of the season with occasional good playcalling .  Right now us fans aren't happy about this, but Reich is gone as are other potential OC's so thats life as  a steeler fan in 2023. 

Just imagine the super bowl parade with canada holding the Lombardi and everything will be alright 

did you guys dislike canada more than fichner?

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, August4th said:

we were a top 10 team in dvoa after the bye(which is apparently a very important stat) 11th on offense and 6th on defense. if that carries over to next yr with more talent added on..we might have something here.

The way AR2 talked about it, sounds like he made the decision to keep Canada. 

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

IMO, you can get by going dirt cheap at ILBer and piecing the position group together with a mix of instincts, athletics, and sub packages...but you can never get away with having a mediocre DL. 

IOW, good coaching and scheme 

 

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

My ideal offseason would have us netting a top starting DL in FA, drafting one in the first two picks who could be the 3rd/4th guy and having a second drafted DL in the 3rd/4th who is more of a niche player (NT/Rush) with some upside.  I want this position completely transformed so we can maximize TJ, Highsmith, and Cam over the next few years. 

this seems on track ,   lets hope they do something like this

 

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

And I won't make another post, but I saw your share of the twitter stuff and I cannot begin to express how much I will hate the "Run it back" based on the back half of the season. 

they liked the momentum, thats a plus.  Now in 3 months we will see what they deemed to be the areas of need. 

the analytics part is something that I don't understand as I thought that was more for playcalling and 4th downs. Hopw would that pertain to evaluating talent and the draft? Is he more influenced by the combine/track meet?

See how the newer additions to the scouting staff affects the team.  I am hopeful, and while I was a critic of colberts from the way he let the defence sour with bad RD1 picks , he deserves credit for some nice picks over the years.  Pickens and Picket are a nice start, and if Najee runs like he did in the last half thats all looking to make the Steelers win more. 

how about some help on the analytics part?

[3rivers]

6 minutes ago, warfelg said:

The way AR2 talked about it, sounds like he made the decision to keep Canada. 

so our super bowl parade will include canada, eh?  KP will become a legend for that alone.  

who was more disliked here, canada, fichner , Haley or ? I thought Haley was good for the most part, the other 2 not at all.  I'm a fan of KP and GP  and expect more receptions for GP in 23'

[August4th]

33 minutes ago, warfelg said:

The way AR2 talked about it, sounds like he made the decision to keep Canada. 

I think that's the case tbh steelers not firing coordinators was a thing before tomlin

[August4th]

43 minutes ago, warfelg said:

 

exciting times, I hope. these two being good at this is just as important as Kenny working out.

[August4th]

reading that article, we have not traded down in the draft since 2010? only 5 times during the colbert era

[warfelg]

13 minutes ago, August4th said:

reading that article, we have not traded down in the draft since 2010? only 5 times during the colbert era

Yup. From what I gather it was Colbert who very much pushed the stay in your pick the right people will fall mentality.