Time to Fire LaFleur, Gute, and Murphy And Burn The House Down

[HokieHigh]

36 minutes ago, LLcheesehead12 said:

The point would be to change the scheme of what's been done here, not hire the failed head coach's sidekick

sorry you missed my point!!!1! we would re-hire nathaniel hackett as a means to play hard-to-get in a bid to convince mccarthy to return home to GB from the cowboys

[Pugger]

On 10/27/2022 at 9:25 AM, pgwingman said:

I can see your point, for sure. I guess my original point was that people have pinned their playoff hopes on Jeudy, Claypool, etc. I don't think we save our playoff hopes with those guys. And I wouldn't really want to trade much draft capital just to save a 7 win season. For that reason, I'd probably just ride through this stretch with no moves.

 

I'm not worried about the playoffs.  I doubt we'll have to concern ourselves with that but it would be nice to have a viable WR so the Packers can be watchable this year.  This team as it is today is about as depressing to watch as those teams back in the 70s and 80s.  I lived thru that carnage and am not eager to experience those kind of days any time soon.

[cannondale]

Mike Wahle again. Touches on a multitude of things. Z.Tom, Rodgers, coaches, OL, the offense, Quay. He has a way of just making sense. To me anyway

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by cannondale

[LLcheesehead12]

Game may not be over, but yet again this offense even if it is dealing with injuries has no excuse in my book for looking like this.  LaFleur has disgraced titletown with this ridiculous **** show, and Gute and all his scouts are the worst front office personnel in Packer history that haven't been this bad since pre-Ron Wolf.

[oldmansmell]

1 hour ago, LLcheesehead12 said:

Game may not be over, but yet again this offense even if it is dealing with injuries has no excuse in my book for looking like this.  LaFleur has disgraced titletown with this ridiculous **** show, and Gute and all his scouts are the worst front office personnel in Packer history that haven't been this bad since pre-Ron Wolf.

You realize it's mostly the same people that were there before Gute right? Like we lost elliot Wolf and Dorsey, but the mechanics are the same as TT.

[mikebpackfan]

Normally you’d say, “this is just garbage time”, but this team needs some moral victories. 

[LLcheesehead12]

37 minutes ago, oldmansmell said:

You realize it's mostly the same people that were there before Gute right? Like we lost elliot Wolf and Dorsey, but the mechanics are the same as TT.

There may still be some of the same scouts and what not, but Gute is still the boss and calls the shots.

And I'm not really a fan of TT's, especially the last few years he was here, but at least before his health deteriorated he gave us the guys who were the major playmakers for this offense.  Gute has been awful with the offense and it didn't change tonight.

[TransientTexan]

People took for granted what TT did in some aspects. The incredible streak of late-round OL gems, & finding great WR’s in rounds 2/3. 

Gute has been better picking on defense, but still waiting for a bigger payoff from 2020 & 2021 draft classes in general. Lots of guys w/ promising rookie years, but not much development after that. 

[oldmansmell]

8 minutes ago, LLcheesehead12 said:

There may still be some of the same scouts and what not, but Gute is still the boss and calls the shots.

And I'm not really a fan of TT's, especially the last few years he was here, but at least before his health deteriorated he gave us the guys who were the major playmakers for this offense.  Gute has been awful with the offense and it didn't change tonight.

Gute has been playing percentages, and that hasn't worked out. But you can't say that he is significantly worse than TT given the fact we can only look at TT's drafts from hindsight. I want my GM to play percentages: The model; athletic defense, solid oline, and pick high RAS guys in late rounds -- is one I think will succeed over time. But you'll always miss, I picked Pierre Strong over Pacheco in my fantasy this year, but both guys are the right kind of guys to target over a long period. You'll eventually hit. 

[LLcheesehead12]

4 minutes ago, oldmansmell said:

Gute has been playing percentages, and that hasn't worked out. But you can't say that he is significantly worse than TT given the fact we can only look at TT's drafts from hindsight. I want my GM to play percentages: The model; athletic defense, solid oline, and pick high RAS guys in late rounds -- is one I think will succeed over time. But you'll always miss, I picked Pierre Strong over Pacheco in my fantasy this year, but both guys are the right kind of guys to target over a long period. You'll eventually hit. 

Big time fail on those two fronts, especially outside of Jenkins as Newman and Runyan have both been awful so far.  And none of his late round WRs from the first year of his drafts are here anymore.  BAD on all counts, and at TE he's been the worst.

Now I don't fault him for putting more investment into the defense, especially since the previous regime failed on that front and cost us playoff wins.  But you can't go dropping the ball and giving us **** for offense like he has and just expect everything to just click.  Our last few playoff losses have featured garbage offense, and it's all his and LaFleur's fault, so I say throw em both outta here for that and get someone from the Kansas City Chiefs front office in here who knows what they're doing in that department.

[oldmansmell]

He's put 3-4 picks every draft into the O-line, and not just late round ones. He's drafted two second round lineman, and then always stacks that with 2-3 mid tier lineman. If you think drafting is what took us away from always having an elite line to having a terrible one (given that a lot of the same players are in question) I kinda question that. Bahk's ACL has been beyond problematic to this organization. 

[DWhitehurst]

It starts with finding someone better than Gute for GM. He has been average at best on his drafts overall in terms of hits/misses. Are there worse GMs for drafting? Sure. But we need better than average, especially given that value free agents aren't lining up to sign with GB unless they considerably overpay. GB's success longterm is mainly tied to drafting and drafting well. Not many do that. But a few do. Baltimore when they were under Ozzie Newsome for example. We need another Ron Wolf.

Edited October 31, 2022 by DWhitehurst

[Isherwood]

I agree that we can do better than Gute when it comes to the draft. I do preemptively caution people in the wild about moving to a new GM if they think we’re going to get a guy that signs a bunch of FAs. I think it is simply “the Packer way” that that doesn’t really happen, and that would have been the case if we hired Eliot Wolf, Alonzo Highsmith, whoever, as GM. 
 

I think that is in the Packers’ DNA and it’s 2-fold: 1. FAs don’t want to come here. Even for Rodgers, despite what he says. They want more money to play in GB, and it takes a perfect storm for us to actually be interested in that. 2. Russ Ball. He’s great at his job and his job is to make the money work with minimal future impact and to be withholding. I absolutely think it’s his job to be the bad cop, when it comes to FAs 

[OneTwoSixFive]

9 hours ago, LLcheesehead12 said:

Big time fail on those two fronts, especially outside of Jenkins as Newman and Runyan have both been awful so far.  And none of his late round WRs from the first year of his drafts are here anymore.  BAD on all counts, and at TE he's been the worst.

Now I don't fault him for putting more investment into the defense, especially since the previous regime failed on that front and cost us playoff wins.  But you can't go dropping the ball and giving us **** for offense like he has and just expect everything to just click.  Our last few playoff losses have featured garbage offense, and it's all his and LaFleur's fault, so I say throw em both outta here for that and get someone from the Kansas City Chiefs front office in here who knows what they're doing in that department.

If you are wondering if a particular take is right or wrong, there are some guys I look to for their opinions, like @MrBobGray for example, or maybe @AlexGreen#20 who I often disagree with, but puts forth reasoned opinions.

Equally, there are posters that I look to for the reverse, those that, if I'm in doubt, I'll look at their opinion and believe the opposite, like hitnhope, LLcheesehead12, who seem to over-react to adversity and at the drop of a hat call for the replacement of (for example) CEO, GM, HC, co-ordinators, QB (select one or more from the above list). I don't see any cogent reasoning for this, just frustration at where the Packers are right now.

The Packers are struggling, we can all see that. But what will they look like late in the season ? Any improvement would likely be too late for this year, but that doesn't mean the Packers should blow it all up. They have a solid roster, so the GM is not doing badly...............they are worse in some position groups than others, but their roster is good overall. La Fleur had three 13 win seasons to start his career with Green Bay. That might mean nothing to some, but to me it indicates he is a coach that deserves the time to put things right. I wouldn't dream of hooking him any time soon. Good head coaches are HARD to find, as tricky as finding a good QB.

Postscript. There are (at least) two levels of 'replacement-level' staff talent, where you might consider a change. The first is when you have average people in some of these positions. I think those we have are generally better than that, but let us assume average for the moment. You only replace a guy if you are CONVINCED the replacement is better than what we have now - firing is easy, getting a good replacement is difficult.

The second, and lowest level of staff talent is that you have one or more staff members that are so awful, you will take whoever you can get at the time, because anyone is better than what the Packers have now. I think there is no-one on the Packers staff that I know of, that is that bad.

Edited October 31, 2022 by OneTwoSixFive

[pgwingman]

On 10/29/2022 at 11:28 AM, Pugger said:

I'm not worried about the playoffs.  I doubt we'll have to concern ourselves with that but it would be nice to have a viable WR so the Packers can be watchable this year.  This team as it is today is about as depressing to watch as those teams back in the 70s and 80s.  I lived thru that carnage and am not eager to experience those kind of days any time soon.

I can appreciate that sentiment, especially if you trade for a younger receiver who'll still be under 30 for a while. My concern is that this team could be clearing out dead cap hits for the next 4 years while trying to rebuild, only to get stuck in that 8-8 purgatory that teams get stuck in.