2022 Steelers Bye Week Thread

[Chieferific]

Tomlin HAS to feel untouchable.  Any other coach would feel the heat and fire Canada.  But not Tomlin.

 

[Dcash4]

25 minutes ago, 43M said:

but just blindly posting stats doesnt prove anything when you dont actually take the time to understand what has led to those numbers.

43, I watch back every game multiple times as a hobby because I love to dig into and chart offense. I mean, who the hell am I...But if you think I am blindly just pulling numbers for this....well...

27 minutes ago, 43M said:

And I am still trying to understand how guys like Burrow and Lawrence would be much better when they have been in similarly bad situations, and in reality, HAVENT been much better

I'm looking directly at the known issues Kenny has that have caused flaws and matching them against the known skill sets of Burrow and Lawrence. Example for you:

Dolphins game, down 6, 3rd and 6, 3 minutes left:

- Kenny bails on a clean pocket (known issue). By bailing, he completely misses a read in front of his face in the MOF that would have been a walk in TD to claypool. Because he bails, Dan Moore gets called for a hold with his defender moving away from his block. Now its 3rd and 16, Kenny throws an interception on the next play. 

Burrow, to a fault, stands in the pocket to look downfield. Burrow and Trevor are both solid processors, Burrow more so than Trevor. They both navigate inside of the pocket well, rather than having their first instinct be to bail. I believe both of those guys make this play, and you can go find situations where they both win over the middle in plays like this too. 

I don't think there would be wholesale crazy improvement that take our team into the top 10 of offense, but small things like this that Pickett struggles with and they are quicker/faster or just simply stronger are where I think the difference would be noticable. 

43 minutes ago, 43M said:

If they deserve a pass, so does Kenny

I never said he doesn't. But your question was if I thought things would be notably different with them and I do. 
 

35 minutes ago, 43M said:

Im giving Kenny AT LEAST the entire 2023 season to prove himself, regardless of how he looks this year.

I 100% agree with this. I wouldn't want to make any other move. I just hope we can all be honest about his play, which at this point isn't great. Personally what I am watching, I do not share the encouragement that you guys have nor do I think it's simply a bad OC causing these issues. 

His limitations mean you need to play perfect and he is a far, far way from perfect. I am just not sure what a realistic leap looks like and where that would leave him. 

38 minutes ago, warfelg said:

4 games in with a crap OC.  Call curtains on his career.

Absolutely not calling it a career for him. I hope I am tremendously wrong. But when a guy comes in without high end tools and known flaws and he does nothing but highlight those known flaws.... I don't have high hopes. 

[warfelg]

10 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Absolutely not calling it a career for him. I hope I am tremendously wrong. But when a guy comes in without high end tools and known flaws and he does nothing but highlight those known flaws.... I don't have high hopes.

Speaks much more to the offensive staff than the player IMO. Especially right now. 

[August4th]

 

[Dcash4]

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Speaks much more to the offensive staff than the player IMO. Especially right now. 

I do believe that NFL offensive success is driven by playing to a player strengths and minimizing the weakness and Canada sucks at that... but that's what makes watching Kenny and seeing a cheerier outlook difficult. Bailing on clean pockets and seeing open receivers yet not pulling the trigger on time are not fixed with staff changes. 

Listen, pretty sure I am the conductor on the "fire Canada" train. But I can also separate Kenny's evaluation from just bad play calling. I don't love what I see. 

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Bailing on clean pockets and seeing open receivers yet not pulling the trigger on time are not fixed with staff changes. 

Sorry this sounds like a common young QB issue.  Burrow was doing this.  Herbert was doing this.  Danny Dimes was doing this.  What you don't want to see is a year in the system with the same OC and still doing it like Zach Wilson.

Basically Kenny's sample size isn't big enough to make many sweeping declarations yet.

3 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I don't love what I see. 

I honestly don't know what I'm seeing, because, hell Canada admitted, we don't even know what play is being called.  I partially wonder if the above is happening not because he's not seeing it but if because the guy isn't where he expects them to be.  The comments this week have been quite damning across the board.

Hell the comment that bugged me the most came from Canada. He was asked about Kenny's comments on study habits and Canada said "who knows, maybe he was talking about himself."  Jesus Matt.  That's a god awful sound bite to have out there.

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, AFF said:

keep the mask on until we draft in the top 5 possibly sa high as 3.  Him doing this is a way of him testing the players in the process. If teammate/captain Throws players under the bus, it will be remembered for trades in the offseason.  This season is over  half way through it. I doubt they rush Watt back out there either, may as well IR him and let him heal properly. IF they rush him back and he re-injures, then people across the entire staff need to be fired.

 

The nfl media are going to laugh about the decision to keep canada. By seasons end, the media that has lots of former players, will make it easier for Omar and co. to fire canada.   So , lets see if we can get to #3 int he draft. If Kenny struggles a few more weeks, may as well let Mitch try, build up some trade value with him in the process because he most likely will be gone anyways.

[3rivers]

13 minutes ago, August4th said:

 

you always have informative newspaper clippings like this one 🤔 Sadly, I thing QB's were still trying to remember that they are now allowed to throw the ball forward in 1942 🥳

 

How many more media inserts will there be about how bad canada is by seasons end? I am expecting weekly or close to it. In the spotlight, and no chance at improving since he is terrible with this team anyways. His system might work  elsewhere, but how an=bout making a scheme for the team that is here?  

 

tanking is the theme this year, never have a steelers team done this since who knows how long. 

[warfelg]

 

[warfelg]

This weeks The Pivot was a good one with the Pouncey Twins. 

[43M]

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

43, I watch back every game multiple times as a hobby because I love to dig into and chart offense. I mean, who the hell am I...But if you think I am blindly just pulling numbers for this....well...

Not saying you dont watch the games.   Im saying you posted the numbers with zero context.

Of course his numbers will suggest he has been horrible....except he hasnt.   He hasnt been great, but the context is necessary seeing as how there are so many issues magnifying his struggles.

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I'm looking directly at the known issues Kenny has that have caused flaws and matching them against the known skill sets of Burrow and Lawrence. Example for you:

Dolphins game, down 6, 3rd and 6, 3 minutes left:

- Kenny bails on a clean pocket (known issue). By bailing, he completely misses a read in front of his face in the MOF that would have been a walk in TD to claypool. Because he bails, Dan Moore gets called for a hold with his defender moving away from his block. Now its 3rd and 16, Kenny throws an interception on the next play. 

Burrow, to a fault, stands in the pocket to look downfield. Burrow and Trevor are both solid processors, Burrow more so than Trevor. They both navigate inside of the pocket well, rather than having their first instinct be to bail. I believe both of those guys make this play, and you can go find situations where they both win over the middle in plays like this too. 

I don't think there would be wholesale crazy improvement that take our team into the top 10 of offense, but small things like this that Pickett struggles with and they are quicker/faster or just simply stronger are where I think the difference would be noticable. 

Ive seen numerous times, just this year, where Burrow failed to make easy reads, especially with Jamar Chase out.    Maybe its distrust of other receivers or maybe he is looking for plays that arent there without Chase, but this is often an issue with QBs when they dont have chemistry or trust with their WRs.   Hell, Ive seen it from Rodgers and Brady too.

Again, I am not saying there arent legit concerns....but Ive seen both Burrow and Lawrence make alot of mistakes and poor throws, and they were much better players COMING IN.      Pickett has only started a few games thus far, and I dont get the feeling the game is too big for him.    I just get the feeling that the current issues with our team are too big for one flawed rookie QB who needs more time to learn to overcome.

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I never said he doesn't. But your question was if I thought things would be notably different with them and I do. 

I guess I just dont get your logic when both players have been in similarly poor situations and havent fared a ton better. 

Im not going to argue this too much since its a hypothetical that cant be proven, but I cant see them adding more than maybe a couple more wins....and thats them RIGHT NOW.   As rookies, perhaps not even that.

 

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I 100% agree with this. I wouldn't want to make any other move. I just hope we can all be honest about his play, which at this point isn't great. Personally what I am watching, I do not share the encouragement that you guys have nor do I think it's simply a bad OC causing these issues. 

His limitations mean you need to play perfect and he is a far, far way from perfect. I am just not sure what a realistic leap looks like and where that would leave him. 

Absolutely not calling it a career for him. I hope I am tremendously wrong. But when a guy comes in without high end tools and known flaws and he does nothing but highlight those known flaws.... I don't have high hopes. 

Well, seeing as how I was one of the people spearheading the charge for not drafting a QB early this past draft....I know where youre coming from. 

However, as @warfelgnoted, there have been numerous great QBs without top end tools that went on to have excellent careers.    Will that be Kenny?   Probably not, but I havent seen enough to make me think he cant do it either.

Maybe I will feel differently about this situation by week 15 or 16.   

But after 4 1/2 weeks?  

With no running game?

With a bottom 5 OC?

With his first half a game being after halftime when not getting a full weeks worth of prep with starters?

With his first full game being on the road vs the best team in the AFC?    And his last game being on the road vs the best team in the NFC?

Yeah, Im going to give him time and PRAY that he gets better under a new offensive regime.

[CKSteeler]

10 hours ago, Chieferific said:

Tomlin HAS to feel untouchable.  Any other coach would feel the heat and fire Canada.  But not Tomlin.

 

I think it's a combination of Tomlin knowing his job is secure, and that the Rooney's really are cheap and don't want to pay a coach to not work even if it's the best thing for the franchise. They don't fire coordinators anymore. They let their contracts expire, and often times try to sell it as if the coach is retiring even when the coach disagrees.

I probably need to spend more time ranting about Art II. 

[Dcash4]

21 hours ago, 43M said:

Of course his numbers will suggest he has been horrible....except he hasnt.   He hasnt been great, but the context is necessary seeing as how there are so many issues magnifying his struggles.

I don't mind the "missing context thing", but your response back to it....also has no context. Just saying he hasn't been horrible doesn't mean much either. What is it you see that makes you feel he is far better than the stats? On the year, he is dead last in the NFL throwing the ball 10 yards downfield in completion percentage (35.7%), Y/A (6.9), and INTs (7). 

Here is my context, and I apologize there are only 16 instead of 22, but it was tough to sort through with gamepass and lining up Play by Play results:

Quote

1. Dolphins, 3rd and 3: C2 Hole shot to DJ which is off target, not catchable. DJ does a really nice job creating separation here. (-)

2. Dolphins, 2nd and 3: Slot fade to Claypool where his feet get knocked out for the INT. Not a greatly placed ball, but I won’t knock him for the pick. (+)

3. Dolphins, 2nd and 14: C2 hole shot to Pickens. Okay placement, though not sure why he didn’t lead him up the field more. Would really like to see this ball lasered in there. Not a coverage bust, but rotating the corner over Pickens to a deep half look (running away from him). You might view this differently and my opinion as harsh, but this isn’t impressive. Dude has 10 yards between him and the nearest defender…but the outcome is positive. (+)

4. Dolphins, 3rd and 4: Throwing a 7 to Claypool, but the throw is way off line and nowhere deep enough. Maybe he thought it was an out? But coverage is draped underneath and there is no one behind Claypool. Bad read, poor accuracy (-)

5. Dolphins, 3rd and 16: Throwing a 16 yard stick route to DJ that gets picked. Never should have thrown this. We can harp on bad play design (it is), but we can also understand this is really flawed recognition and a bad play by Kenny. Stares down the receiver, throwing into a coverage that should have dictated going elsewhere, and is late throwing to the break too. S breaks on the route well before Kenny releases it. Needs to be better and take Gentry for half the yardage or Najee on the dump off and live for 4th down. Bad play (-)

6. Dolphins, 4th and 6: Really impressive throw to Freiermuth. Pins it right on him against tight coverage. Best throw of his career to this point. (+) 

7. Dolphins, 2nd and 2: Interception that ended the game. Breaks free from a clean pocket, elects to throw it into coverage when he clearly could pick up the first and get out of bounds, throws a back shoulder when it should be the back of the endzone, throwing off balance when he doesn’t need to…really, take your pick (-)

8. Eagles: 2nd and 7, Chunk yardage to Freiermuth here. Has a 2 high look, but shifts to single high to the well before the snap. Pickett is looking for the double move to Pickens but 1) Pickens route is awful and 2) the CB is playing way too far off and doesn’t bit at all. Kenny comes to Muth who is wide open, but doesn’t pull the trigger. Actually taps the ball again before releasing it. Not sure why this takes so long, but it’s a positive outcome. No player within 10 yards of Pat when the ball is released (+)

9. Eagles: 1st and 10: PA roll out to Kenny’s right. Has a deep comeback to DJ and 2 crossing routes. It’s one on one and Slays hip switch. Not sure why Kenny does it, but he looks back inside for the crossers. Maybe this is taught? Don’t know. But we can judge 3 things here if that’s the case. The second thing is DJ, not sure why he breaks inside rather than away towards the sideline. But Kenny should have released this ball well before the break. Ball has to travel 27 yards between Slay making his cut and getting to the receiver. Slay should pick this ball off. The way this play is taught and DJ can be better here, but weaker arms can't be late. Everybody gets docked here. (-)

10. Eagles: 2nd and 10: Slip screen here that fools no one and deep down the right to Pickens who gets away from no one. Okay ball placement, but as amazing as Pickens catch is, can't get his foot down. Don’t love the velocity on a placement throw that has to travel nearly 30 yards to get there. (+)

11. Eagles, 2nd and 10: Play should be a touchdown. Shoulda been a completion too if Tomlin challenges. For the life of me don’t know why Kenny goes back shoulder here. Press man outside and Pickens wins in the first 2 yards. Has a step by 5. Kenny throws a bad back shoulder. Basically just throws a jump ball instead of a placement throw towards the sideline. (-)

12. Eagles: 2nd and 7: 3x1 isolating Pickens with a press look, but they back off pre-snap. Kenny makes it look like he is reading/holding the S who drops, but seems pretty predetermined he is headed to George. Bad ball. Bad read. Pickens is blanketed and the ball sails well out of bounds. Had we read the S here, we should have gone to Freiermuth. Lotta space. (-)

13. Eagles 3rd and 2: PA with a deep shot to DJ. DJ wins but the ball is just out reach. Gotta have this one, but I don’t hate the ball placement heading DJ back towards the sideline. I’d be neutral here (/)

14. Eagles: 1st and 10: Tries a double move to DJ, but there is a disconnect here. Maybe Kenny is throwing this ball away because it’s well covered? Don’t know. No where near the receiver who broke inside (which would be the right call). Bigger problem is that this seems predetermined again. Show C2, gets C2. Seems to want the hole shot, but they motioned the only other receiving threat to DJs side away so that CB is straight man. Does have Sims down the middle (c2=MOF open). Not a great read and doesn’t have to hurry the throw. (-)

15. Eagles: 2nd and 10: 3x1 with DJ Iso’d at the top. That’s his first look and DJ wins within 5. Not sure why he stares here, but won’t release this ball. It’s a win. Comes back late to Claypool. Ball tipped at the line, but that might be a good thing. (-)

16. Eagles, 3rd and 7: Ball tipped by the linebacker and INT by the safety trying to hit Pat up the seam. Pat is wide open. The S on the far side bails over the top to DJ. There is nothing but green space anywhere ahead of Pat. Kenny throws it way too narrow. Tipped, picked. (-)

 

In 16 of the plays, I have 10 as negatives, 1 as neutral, and 5 positive, which is funny because the 31% positive matches the 31% completion percentage from the numbers i shared before.  With all of these, there is 1 single NFL level throw. I mean something is isn't easily replicated -- and that's the dolphins throw to Freiermuth. When we talk about plays above replacement, I don't see a lot going on here that others couldn't/shouldn't do. 

You guys can point to Drew Brees about how it CAN work, but you are also threading a needle on the 1 in 1,000. How many guys come into the league with average at best physical tools and go nowhere? There are 32 QBs that came into the league in the last 3 years. It goes back to needing to be perfect in everything else, and Kenny is far from that. 

But that leads to your small sample size. You act as if 4 games is all we can chat about, but he has 50 games to bounce to in College. And that's my problem with Kenny, when we watch games and you see patterns and those patterns match the scouting report negatives, we are not talking small sample size issues, we are talking core concerns.  I'll put my thought process out here for more context in a quote so it can be minimized:

Quote

Take the eagles game. Deep in the second half there is a play with 3x1 receivers lined up against one outside CB playing 8-10 off and a second playing at LB, who shifts to edge. It's 3 on 1. That's a win every single day. Pickett even communicates to the receivers before the snap. At the snap, the corner rushes, Pickett stares at Boykin, who is wide open on a quick 4 and in cut, but does not release the ball. He holds, pats, then tries to escape the rush only to take a sack because the CB in the NFL is going to win that 9 outta 10 times. 

Maybe this rough mental processing of an open receiver throwing to a hot is a one off thing? Except I remember earlier in the game when...

Freiermuth is the inside receiver running the seam with a Pickens double move. Pickens doesn't get open, Kenny shifts to Pat. The end zone view is perfect to see his head find Pat in a wide open lane. He sits. He pats the ball. He bounces. He releases, 2 seconds later than he should. 

Even in a successful play its slow processing, even to wide open receivers. So I go back one more week:

Dolphins game, a roll out to the left. It's a one, single receiver route. DJ from inside pushes up the field and breaks back towards the sideline. Kenny waits, takes 2 more steps after the break and throws to DJ later than he should, and leads him right out of bounds for a catch and a 4 yard gain. 

Again, slow processing to an open receiver and one that required no more read as he was the single target (A matt canada favorite). I can take this one the whole way back to Pre-season on the game winner in his first appearance. The throw is late in consideration to the break, but luckily it's against a guy who isn't playing in the NFL anymore. He sees it, knows thats where he wants to go with the ball, but still waits for the guy to come out of his break before releasing it. 

It's his first NFL action so, but let's go back to the scouting report:

— Inconsistent timing on his throws that isn't as glaring at the college level due to a stout offensive line. Resorts to scramble drills too often because he ends up late.

- Often fails to give receivers a change to make a play after the catch

- Has struggles with his decision making and needs to improve pre-snap recognition skills to read defense and see blitz

- Doesn't decipher information as quickly as you would like

- Clock needs speeding up, and anticipation can be a tick slow

 

So the issues we see are long standing issues that he presented in college. This isn't just "oh, he these are things young rookies struggle with" there is a long standing pattern of Kenny struggling with these. It's not just game 4, it's year 5. I don't magically see year 6 getting light years better. So how much would you anticipate these improving? It's not that they can't, but he also isn't likely to go from a guy who waits an extra 2 seconds to see a guy open to an QB making that quick decision and throwing before that receiver turns his head. 

This isn't me putting a nail in the coffin of his career, but most guys have a difficult time running from their scouting weakness and the problem then with Kenny is that by lack of physical ability to make up for things, his flaws play against what he needs to be -- quick, on time, consistent, and most of all... right. 

I am a little confused, as you both seem to suggest that you don't believe Kenny is the guy. So it's strange to me that you also seem to be anti-criticism. I mean, this isn't some great prospect that I am being hard on. It's a mediocre, at best prospect, that's career will be defined by how perfect he can play. 

I don't mind pushback to criticism of Kenny, but you are also not presenting anything other than a hope and a dream of better days. "When Matt Canada is gone next year"....great. Why do I get the feeling we can already copy and paste "this is his first year in a new system"  if some of the things he is going to need to be better at aren't?

[warfelg]

37 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I am a little confused, as you both seem to suggest that you don't believe Kenny is the guy.

The guy as in overpay and he can cover for others weaknesses? No. The guy as in a QB that can lead a well built team? Yes. 
 

But he (obviously) is someone you can put the right system in place and see success. So build that around him. And if he doesn’t do it….you can use picks to get a rookie you think can. Both @43M and I wanted to build a team first QB later because giving up assets to get one doesn’t hurt you. If we “give up” on Kenny now because of these things (and for the amount of Canadian problems this team has we shouldn’t because of those things) you spend another high pick on a QB. Which means you wasted an asset (2022 1st round pick) on getting someone who you didn’t do enough research on. 

[warfelg]

47 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Why do I get the feeling we can already copy and paste "this is his first year in a new system"  if some of the things he is going to need to be better at aren't?

Sorry for the double post/quote. Depends what we are seeing. If it’s a better playcall and system where he can’t place the ball where it needs to be but makes the right reads - fire away on those criticisms. That’s a problem. 
 

But if the system is crap and relies on WRs winning 1v1 routes into KPs weak spots (like right now) then it’s not fair to put it on him. 
 

Last year Pitts coaches really understood KPs limitations and built something around that. I feel like Canada hasn’t done that. It’s like he (Canada) has seen Kenny and Mitch’s weaknesses and went “Yes. That’s what I want them to do.” 
 

Just think this:

You talk about those honey pot throws. Would you keep asking for them on a straight drop back 5-8 times a game knowing Kenny’s limits or would you put them in an out-and-up route or in PA to force the safety to move?

 

Edit - 

My issue with what you are resenting is you are pulling apart Kenny’s throw from the offensive play call in a way that makes it sound far worse than it is. Half the guys that are “open” aren’t in Kenny’s line of sight meaning he isn’t being told to look their way. Repeated back shoulder fades even though a guy has a step was a thing even in Bens time so that seems to be coaching choices. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by warfelg