Week 16: JAX Jags vs NY Jets

[jetsfan4life51]

You know what I just realized? I don’t think our DL has knocked down a pass this season yet we have at least 2 a game. 

[Bobby816]

8 hours ago, NJC33 said:

Breece gave this team an identity for the first time in a decade, we lost it when he went down. 

Wilson is 1-3 without him, collectively we're 2-5. White gives us the better chance to win, but the difference is marginal -- ineptitude up front contributes to this; Zach actually looks more comfortable playing unscripted, whereas, Mike White is useless outside the pocket. Again, White > Wilson.. but I don't see a big gap (assuming the OL continues to struggle). Neither are good enough to win without a ground game.

Crazy to think with Breece and AVT we're probably 10-4 right now. My outlook on the season changed drastically after that Denver game. 

This has been my line of thinking that has been argued for a few weeks on here.

If White is good than so is Wilson. But if Wilson is bad, then so is White.

1 isn't good and the other is bad. For me they're both below average.

But most have this narrative that White is just so much better than Wilson, when that's not the case.

Much like you, I stated that White probably gives us the best chance to win. But fact is in his last 2 games after playing a weak CHI team with no Fields... he was 0-2 with 0 TDs and 2 INTs. So not sure where the narrative is that he's good. Unless the fan boys of White are choosing to ignore those games and just remembering the CHI game. If that's the case than do the same with Wilson. Choose to remember the BUF game instead of the NE game.

Most the fans seem to crave wanting to see Wilson fail. Which makes no sense to me. They actually would like to see Wilson fail last week and this week and cost us the playoffs, just to go back to White. Which is absolutely nuts if you ask me. Wilson is coming off a 300+yd game with 2 TDs and 1 INT. The narrative that we're going to lose bc he's at QB is baffling. Especially when those with that line of thinking, think we stand a better chance with White who's 1-2 as starter.

[Bobby816]

15 minutes ago, jetsfan4life51 said:

You know what I just realized? I don’t think our DL has knocked down a pass this season yet we have at least 2 a game. 

Our DEs aren't that big. They average I think less than 6'3". So it's hard for them to get the leverage to jump at throwing time when the OTs they face typically have 2-4" on them. Q and Rankins aren't the tallest either. So I think it comes down to more height and leverage than anything else. 

[jetjuice]

51 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

This has been my line of thinking that has been argued for a few weeks on here.

If White is good than so is Wilson. But if Wilson is bad, then so is White.

1 isn't good and the other is bad. For me they're both below average.

But most have this narrative that White is just so much better than Wilson, when that's not the case.

Much like you, I stated that White probably gives us the best chance to win. But fact is in his last 2 games after playing a weak CHI team with no Fields... he was 0-2 with 0 TDs and 2 INTs. So not sure where the narrative is that he's good. Unless the fan boys of White are choosing to ignore those games and just remembering the CHI game. If that's the case than do the same with Wilson. Choose to remember the BUF game instead of the NE game.

Most the fans seem to crave wanting to see Wilson fail. Which makes no sense to me. They actually would like to see Wilson fail last week and this week and cost us the playoffs, just to go back to White. Which is absolutely nuts if you ask me. Wilson is coming off a 300+yd game with 2 TDs and 1 INT. The narrative that we're going to lose bc he's at QB is baffling. Especially when those with that line of thinking, think we stand a better chance with White who's 1-2 as starter.

One player is more physically gifted than the other, but is also far less cerebral.

You need both to win in this league. Since we can't fuse Zach and Mike together, I'm forced to accept that neither is the guy. 

The mental errors are far more maddening than physical shortcomings, so fans tend to think White is better.

[Bobby816]

1 minute ago, jetjuice said:

One player is more physically gifted than the other, but is also far less cerebral.

You need both to win in this league. Since we can't fuse Zach and Mike together, I'm forced to accept that neither is the guy. 

The mental errors are far more maddening than physical shortcomings, so fans tend to think White is better.

It's optimistic... but everything missing from Zach's game is coachable. His footwork is coachable. Getting rid of the ball faster is coachable. Not throwing off his back foot often is coachable, etc. That's the difference. White will never be able to be a threat rolling out of the pocket. He wont ever be able to elude pressure. He will never be able to sling the ball with the flick of a wrist 50 yards across his body. Etc.

A thing that never gets brought up in the comparison of the 2. Is the age gap. White is 4.5 years older than Wilson. So his limited mental errors and such are bc he's been around nearly 5 years more. So the game and everything is slower for him bc of his experience. This is all part of having a young QB. There will be a learning curve. But the hope is that it clicks for them one day.

We aren't talking about that Wilson went from a game that he threw for 77yds 0TDs 0INTs to 317yds 2TDs 1INT. Is that not a huge improvement? It is to me. And that was with no run game. 

[NJC33]

27 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

This has been my line of thinking that has been argued for a few weeks on here.

If White is good than so is Wilson. But if Wilson is bad, then so is White.

1 isn't good and the other is bad. For me they're both below average.

But most have this narrative that White is just so much better than Wilson, when that's not the case.

Much like you, I stated that White probably gives us the best chance to win. But fact is in his last 2 games after playing a weak CHI team with no Fields... he was 0-2 with 0 TDs and 2 INTs. So not sure where the narrative is that he's good. Unless the fan boys of White are choosing to ignore those games and just remembering the CHI game. If that's the case than do the same with Wilson. Choose to remember the BUF game instead of the NE game.

Most the fans seem to crave wanting to see Wilson fail. Which makes no sense to me. They actually would like to see Wilson fail last week and this week and cost us the playoffs, just to go back to White. Which is absolutely nuts if you ask me. Wilson is coming off a 300+yd game with 2 TDs and 1 INT. The narrative that we're going to lose bc he's at QB is baffling. Especially when those with that line of thinking, think we stand a better chance with White who's 1-2 as starter.

White can actually operate the offense as intended, so when the line holds up he gives us a clear advantage. He's a system QB, which isn't meant to be critical -- I would bet that's exactly what MLF wants, for the same reason Shanahan supposedly favored Mac. Wilson is wildly inaccurate and everyone is going to remember the egregious throws, his issues are self-inflicted. Which is to say, it's easy to blame Wilson when he struggles and easy to blame everyone else for Whites limitations.

With a healthy Breece/AVT and this team eyeing a legitimate playoff run, White would clearly be the best option. With things how they are, it's a great opportunity to see what we still have with Zach. Sure, chances are he implodes, but even then we gain conviction as to how the position needs to be handled this off-season.  

[jetjuice]

38 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

It's optimistic... but everything missing from Zach's game is coachable. His footwork is coachable. Getting rid of the ball faster is coachable. Not throwing off his back foot often is coachable, etc. That's the difference. White will never be able to be a threat rolling out of the pocket. He wont ever be able to elude pressure. He will never be able to sling the ball with the flick of a wrist 50 yards across his body. Etc.

A thing that never gets brought up in the comparison of the 2. Is the age gap. White is 4.5 years older than Wilson. So his limited mental errors and such are bc he's been around nearly 5 years more. So the game and everything is slower for him bc of his experience. This is all part of having a young QB. There will be a learning curve. But the hope is that it clicks for them one day.

We aren't talking about that Wilson went from a game that he threw for 77yds 0TDs 0INTs to 317yds 2TDs 1INT. Is that not a huge improvement? It is to me. And that was with no run game. 

Not everything is coachable. He has a lot of flaws that are common amongst QB busts that never tend go away - namely facing pressure and field vision. 

He still needs to be able to beat the Pats if he wants to be the QB of this franchise, I don't care if he bounces back with a mediocre performance against a mediocre defense at home next time out. It wasn't enough to swing the pendulum. But he put us in position to send the game to OT which I have to give him credit for.

You're right though the lack of push in the trenches is alarming. We had been running the ball decently well prior to this game vs Detroit.

Edited December 21, 2022 by jetjuice

[NJC33]

27 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

It's optimistic... but everything missing from Zach's game is coachable. His footwork is coachable. Getting rid of the ball faster is coachable. Not throwing off his back foot often is coachable, etc. That's the difference. White will never be able to be a threat rolling out of the pocket. He wont ever be able to elude pressure. He will never be able to sling the ball with the flick of a wrist 50 yards across his body. Etc.

A thing that never gets brought up in the comparison of the 2. Is the age gap. White is 4.5 years older than Wilson. So his limited mental errors and such are bc he's been around nearly 5 years more. So the game and everything is slower for him bc of his experience. This is all part of having a young QB. There will be a learning curve. But the hope is that it clicks for them one day.

We aren't talking about that Wilson went from a game that he threw for 77yds 0TDs 0INTs to 317yds 2TDs 1INT. Is that not a huge improvement? It is to me. And that was with no run game. 

We're on the same page, but here's my issue - you're missing Zach's biggest weakness, which is between the ears. When he throws a 10yd screen at the ground, that isn't the result of poor footwork. He's overthinking, trying to guide the ball with his throwing motion as opposed to simply letting it loose. That's a huge, huge concern for me. All the talent in world, all the coaching in the world and he can't get out of his own head.

He's only comfortable playing unscripted, when he doesn't have the time to think or mentally process the throw he's about to make. That's when all the chunk, flash plays happen for him. 

[Bobby816]

37 minutes ago, NJC33 said:

We're on the same page, but here's my issue - you're missing Zach's biggest weakness, which is between the ears. When he throws a 10yd screen at the ground, that isn't the result of poor footwork. He's overthinking, trying to guide the ball with his throwing motion as opposed to simply letting it loose. That's a huge, huge concern for me. All the talent in world, all the coaching in the world and he can't get out of his own head.

He's only comfortable playing unscripted, when he doesn't have the time to think or mentally process the throw he's about to make. That's when all the chunk, flash plays happen for him. 

I agree with you. Except I'll be the 1st to admit he's not there mentally, so I'm not missing that. But I do think that's fixable. That's not me saying he will 100% fix it. Its just that it can be. I think the game slows down for every player as they see more and more in this league. With Wilson a lot of this needs to be on the staff as well. It actually got brought up with Eisen and Jeremiah yesterday. Is that MLF doesn't change his offense based on whos at QB. Fields was brought up. CHI altered there offense to Fields strengths. And that's why they look 100 times better. There's been 0 adjustment in the game plan from when Wilson is at QB to when White is. When they're in fact totally different QBs physically and mentally. Cater the game plan for Wilson for more roll outs and when the need to make a quick decision he only has 1 or 2 reads. They're in essence trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Coach Wilson to try and grasp things that you love in the system. But also work to his strengths. And there's literally none of that going on.

[xrade]

11 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

The thing is is a QB can be taught to get rid of the ball faster and set their feet and deliver the ball accurately. Everyone can tell Wilson has arm talent. When he’s inaccurate it’s bc if poor footwork and mechanics. All things that can be coached. I’ve noticed a lot of his short throws that are inaccurate are when he’s flat footed or throwing off his back foot at a weird arm angle. He hasn’t deserved the ability to improvise yet. So he should not be making Mahomes like throws. He should only be throng balls with correct mechanics. And when he starts hitting those regularly. Then improvise a bit and use that unteachable arm talent.

100%. The question is when. I really believe he practices better than he plays because there is no pressure. Once game time comes he reverts. A much better OL will certainly help but when will Zach become an NFL QB?  Do we the fans have the patience? Does the NY/NJ media?  Saleh mentioned instant coffee. News flash coach, this is reality.

This is why I advocate for MFW to play out the year and go into next season as the starter. Let Zach brew and work at his craft. Fix the OL. In 2024, let’s see what Zach can do. I do not regard MFW as our franchise QB, but he can be a good place holder.

Edited December 21, 2022 by xrade

[Bobby816]

7 minutes ago, xrade said:

100%. The question is when. I really believe he practices better than he plays because there is no pressure. Once game time comes he reverts. A much better OL will certainly help but when will Zach become an NFL QB?  Do we the fans have the patience? Does the NY/NJ media?  Saleh mentioned instant coffee. News flash coach, this is reality.

This is why I advocate for MFW to play out the year and go into next season as the starter. Let Zach brew and work at his craft. Fix the OL. In 2024, let’s see what Zach can do. I do not regard MFW as our franchise QB, but he can be a good place holder.

Whites not playing bc we think Wilson > White. He’s out bc he’s not cleared to get hit. And with our OL even if White was in. Wilson would be in by halftime anyway bc of White taking shots.

[xrade]

6 hours ago, Berries said:

I’m an Australian Jags fan, rarely get to see them play down here. Will be on at midday Friday two days out from Christmas with work over for the year. Going down to the pub to smash a few  beers for this hehe 

I always find it interesting when fans from other countries become devoted to a team. I can understand choosing a perennial winning franchise but to choose Jax or the Jets is interesting to me. Why?  I became a Jets fan after they won the SB because it was the talk of the household at the time. I was young. I wish I could take that moment back but I am stuck. Enjoy the game and beer. Hopefully the outcome will want to make you ***** slap a kangaroo or a wallaby. 

[ekill08x]

The amount of box score watchers to make judgements without context is getting absurd on this board. 

[GangGreen420]

3 minutes ago, ekill08x said:

The amount of box score watchers to make judgements without context is getting absurd on this board. 

Especially when it comes to QB

[ekill08x]

16 minutes ago, GangGreen420 said:

Especially when it comes to QB

Agreed but I can't even get into these debates anymore its not even worth it. People have their minds made up and that is fine I just don't even have the energy to bother lol. Let's just win Thursday night. I want to make the playoffs so just win. Just going to need significantly cleaner QB&OL play this game.