2023 QB

[wackywabbit]

15 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

To be fair - this is an offense (both schematically and personnel wise) that was built entirely around the skillset of Lamar Jackson.

When the Ravens drafted Hurst before Lamar they literally said it was for the current offense with Flacco and you'd assume Andrews was in the same bucket. Once they realized that were going in on Lamar, they drafted Hollywood and Boykin with premium picks to be speed guys on the boundary. Bateman, Duv, Tylan Wallace... those picks were all part of the "offense build around Lamar". It never materialized. None of those guys was a clear hit and/or had the ability to reliably stay on the field.

Just because Lamar has to work with whatever strengths are in our atypical scheme and personnel doesn't mean it is some special setup for him.

[wackywabbit]

15 hours ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

Idk. I’m thinking about this fully guaranteed thing. It’s not the standard and we shouldn’t follow the lead of the Cleveland freaking Browns. But if we do it, it will become the standard. I mean we’ve seen the difference between with him and without him. If we give him the money and he gets hurt we’ll be screwed. If we don’t give him the money and he leaves we’ll be screwed. 

Yep. The guaranteed money is not a issue as a fan wanting to see a good team. It's only a financial complication for billionaire owners that gets talked about by fans way too much.

Very few of these mega deal QBs get cut and that's the only time fully guaranteed really matters. When we made Flacco the highest paid QB ever 120M but only 52M guaranteed, we would have been better off paying him 100M with 100M guaranteed because he was not cut in 5 years anyway. Goff and Wentz (probably will this year, but 4 years post extension all paid) haven't been cut yet.

As you said, if Lamar sucks in 3 years, we are going to need the remaining 2 years to rebuild and find a new QB anyway and there will be much bigger competitive concerns than cap space.

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, wackywabbit said:

When the Ravens drafted Hurst before Lamar they literally said it was for the current offense with Flacco and you'd assume Andrews was in the same bucket. Once they realized that were going in on Lamar, they drafted Hollywood and Boykin with premium picks to be speed guys on the boundary. Bateman, Duv, Tylan Wallace... those picks were all part of the "offense build around Lamar". It never materialized. None of those guys was a clear hit and/or had the ability to reliably stay on the field.

Just because Lamar has to work with whatever strengths are in our atypical scheme and personnel doesn't mean it is some special setup for him.

I think he’s parroting the media notion that the Ravens somehow constructed this offense around Lamar by going out and making Roman their OC.

Which is a foolish assertion because Roman ran this same offense with Kaepernick and Taylor. Both running QBs and he pounded their brains in but then couldn’t develop them as passers in either circumstance.

Paterno at Louisville built an offense for Lamar where he spread the defense out intentionally with the design to keep linebackers occupied for Lamar to split by them or throw it behind them. He took advantage of Lamar’s ability to process the middle of the field well and take the occasional deep shots. He challenged defenses to maintain discipline with their drop zones while keeping Lamar contained in front of them.

That offense was COMPLETELY different than what Roman rehashed from prior stints… and it was equally as good as it led to Lamar nearly winning back to back Heismans.

The common denominator seems to have been Lamar, not the “uniquely designed” offenses built specifically for him. So this dumb assertion/narrative of Lamar being hand gifted this (recycled) offense was already dumb from the beginning and the only reason this narrative caught fire is because media members couldn’t let go of the narrative that maybe Lamar is just a good QB and so they excused away their prior analysis of the fact that he was really a RB/WR playing QB, by using the convenient assertion that this offense was designed specifically for him and THAT is why he was succeeding as a QB in the NFL, not the fact that he himself actually was talented enough to succeed.

[paraven]

3 hours ago, RavensTillIDie said:

Damn you are terrible at evaluating quarterbacks....

 

Hooker is more likely to go undrafted than go in the 1st.

Bet he goes between 30-40 overall

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

I think he’s parroting the media notion that the Ravens somehow constructed this offense around Lamar by going out and making Roman their OC.

Which is a foolish assertion because Roman ran this same offense with Kaepernick and Taylor. Both running QBs and he pounded their brains in but then couldn’t develop them as passers in either circumstance.

And he got the best out of those players, did he not? Lamar is also a unanimous MVP in this offense at the professional level. It's not a media notion that we constructed this offense to maximize Lamar's skillset, it's a straight up proven fact. I don't even know how that's a controversial point, honestly.

However, like you pointed out here, he couldn't develop either of those guys as NFL-caliber passers and here we are with Lamar following that same trend to an extent because Greg Roman's passing scheme is so sloppy/lazy that it seems almost impossible for QB's to actually grow within it.

[wackywabbit]

26 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

It's not a media notion that we constructed this offense to maximize Lamar's skillset, it's a straight up proven fact. I don't even know how that's a controversial point, honestly.

No, it's just, like, your opinion, man.

How are would you even know this when we've only seen Lamar in this offense (and the absolute barebones offense they made his rookie year which was still good enough to save that team's season). How is it a proven fact that he wouldn't be better in other offenses? As I said with the type of investments they made in WR and what they were trying to do there, this team didn't even build the offense they wanted to build. Do you think where we are at is the plan at WR?

As @diamondbull424said, Lamar was in a far more traditional pro style offense in college and was one of the best college QBs I've ever seen. Maybe the best when you account for the talent on the QB's team vs the teams they played.

[RavensTillIDie]

1 hour ago, paraven said:

Bet he goes between 30-40 overall

Forget everything else in terms of the limitations of that Tennessee offense, the kid has a torn ACL. There's literally no way he can boost his stock at a pro day or the senior bowl. Granted it's an underwhelming QB class, but if a team is willing to risk anything greater than a day 3 pick on him, I will be absolutely shocked.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

18 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

No, it's just, like, your opinion, man.

How are would you even know this when we've only seen Lamar in this offense (and the absolute barebones offense they made his rookie year which was still good enough to save that team's season). How is it a proven fact that he wouldn't be better in other offenses?

Isn't being the unanimous MVP of the league kind of like the peak of what a player can achieve? This offensive system in 2019 allowed him to be the league's best rusher (by a wide margin) for a QB and also lead the league in touchdown passes. Not sure what other offensive system that exists out there would do that? I'm open to suggestions, though.

18 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

As I said with the type of investments they made in WR and what they were trying to do there, this team didn't even build the offense they wanted to build. Do you think where we are at is the plan at WR?

Last year when we had Hollywood, Bateman and Andrews I think that's about as close as you'll ever get to whatever type of offense they wanted to run, and even then Lamar wasn't close to what he was doing in 2019.

18 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

As @diamondbull424said, Lamar was in a far more traditional pro style offense in college and was one of the best college QBs I've ever seen. Maybe the best when you account for the talent on the QB's team vs the teams they played.

I've never once in my life heard anyone classify a college offense that was mainly shotgun/pistol spread with read-options being a "pro-style offense", but I guess I'll just take your word for it because I didn't watch much of him in college before the draft.

[Ray Reed]

4 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

When the Ravens drafted Hurst before Lamar they literally said it was for the current offense with Flacco and you'd assume Andrews was in the same bucket. Once they realized that were going in on Lamar, they drafted Hollywood and Boykin with premium picks to be speed guys on the boundary. Bateman, Duv, Tylan Wallace... those picks were all part of the "offense build around Lamar". It never materialized. None of those guys was a clear hit and/or had the ability to reliably stay on the field.

Just because Lamar has to work with whatever strengths are in our atypical scheme and personnel doesn't mean it is some special setup for him.

Not arguing it’s a special setup for him.

Im arguing that it’s an atypical offense built around running the option and throwing primarily across the middle of the field to tight ends.

Lamar’s talent made that type of offense productive when he was in the lineup. Other QBs who enter the lineup who don’t have the ability to center everything around the threat of the read option don’t have nearly the same success in an offense predicated around that like Roman has run the past few years, so it inevitably fails when he’s out of the lineup.

Not everything has to be taken as a slight on Lamar. I’m agreeing that he’s in an offense that 99% of other QBs throughout NFL history wouldn’t be able to make function. Roman saw the option/TE centric offense go bananas in 2019 and continued to roll with it without really even attempting to diversify the outside passing game. 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ray Reed

[Ray Reed]

Not sure why @diamondbull424 is getting so defensive at the idea that a run-centric, option based offense was put into place in 2018 to utilize Lamar Jackson’s skillset. 

I never said Lamar couldn’t succeed in other offenses. I said the reason we continue to run pistol, option-based stuff under Roman is because Lamar is a mobile quarterback that makes that system effective, and when other guys who aren’t as talented as him try to take over that offense, that aren’t nearly as productive.

You really are going to argue against that? You don’t think Roman’s system is the way it is as currently constructed because Lamar is a talented running QB? You think this offense would run the same stuff if we had a Tom Brady or Flacco type back there?

Guess common sense is just “foolishly parroting media narratives” nowadays if someone (incorrectly) perceives it to be a slight against Lamar Jackson.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ray Reed

[wackywabbit]

 

21 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Not sure why @diamondbull424 is getting so defensive at the idea that a run-centric, option based offense was put into place in 2018 to utilize Lamar Jackson’s skillset. 

I never said Lamar couldn’t succeed in other offenses. I said the reason we continue to run pistol, option-based stuff under Roman is because Lamar is a mobile quarterback that makes that system effective, and when other guys who aren’t as talented as him try to take over that offense, that aren’t nearly as productive.

You really are going to argue against that? You don’t think Roman’s system is the way it is as currently constructed because Lamar is a talented running QB? You think this offense would run the same stuff if we had a Tom Brady or Flacco type back there?

Guess common sense is just “foolishly parroting media narratives” nowadays if someone (incorrectly) perceives it to be a slight against Lamar Jackson.

 

I think what's relevant is whether what is whether the offense as a whole is helpful or not, compared to what else could be done here or elsewhere, whether they planned it with a unique level customization to Lamar or not. The answer to this isn't the same year to year, either. We didn't have the 2019 offensive line every year.

Also, what are your thoughts on the investments in wide receivers? Since Lamar established himself as the starter, in 4 drafts we've had 2 firsts, a 3rd, and 4th at the position all on guys that were thought to be field stretches. Does that not indicate to you that they were trying to build a different offense to a degree?

Edited January 12, 2023 by wackywabbit

[Ray Reed]

5 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

 

I think what's relevant is whether what is whether the offense as a whole is helpful or not, compared to what else could be done here or elsewhere, whether they planned it with a unique level customization to Lamar or not. The answer to this isn't the same year to year, either. We didn't have the 2019 offensive line every year.

My overall point is that Roman has gotten lazy (or always was) and basically just relies on Lamar to make magic in an offense built around the read option ability and that isn’t sustainable when QBs who aren’t Lamar come in and try to run it (like the last 5-6 weeks).

I do think that we have some pieces for our inevitable offensive philosophical shift. I think Stanley/Linderbaum/Zeitler/Andrews/Likely/Bateman are guys who will (hopefully) work in any system we decide to move to next year. This is all with the caveat that Roman is fired obviously 

I don’t think it’s arguable that Roman tailored the 2018/19 offense around Lamar though as there was a clear shift in philosophy once we moved from Flacco to Lamar. That’s not really my sticking point though as stated above

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ray Reed

[Ray Reed]

1 hour ago, wackywabbit said:

 

I think what's relevant is whether what is whether the offense as a whole is helpful or not, compared to what else could be done here or elsewhere, whether they planned it with a unique level customization to Lamar or not. The answer to this isn't the same year to year, either. We didn't have the 2019 offensive line every year.

Also, what are your thoughts on the investments in wide receivers? Since Lamar established himself as the starter, in 4 drafts we've had 2 firsts, a 3rd, and 4th at the position all on guys that were thought to be field stretches. Does that not indicate to you that they were trying to build a different offense to a degree?

You added the 2nd part after my initial response, here’s my response to that:

 

Whatever offense they were trying to build went out the window once those WRs were either traded (Hollywood), injured (Bateman), or proven to stink (Duvernay/Proche). Then it went right back to the same old read option, RPO, counter-tray, hit the TEs across the middle offense it always was (since 2nd half of 2018). 

Every year we’ve essentially reverted to that offense once the midway point of the season had passed. And again - my initial point - is that Lamar can make that offense work, that’s why Roman constructed it/reverted to it when the bullets started flying and things go into win-now mode (how many times have we seen the QB power lead in big moments the last 2 years?) When other guys like Huntley and Brown have tried to run that offense, it hasn’t worked (to the extent it does under Lamar because of his skillset)

 

[RavensTillIDie]

2 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Last year when we had Hollywood, Bateman and Andrews I think that's about as close as you'll ever get to whatever type of offense they wanted to run, and even then Lamar wasn't close to what he was doing in 2019.

Just to expound on this point, I feel like that stretch of games last year centered around the Colts comeback win was the pinnacle of Roman's offense, or at least what it can be at maximum utilization. The Colts game highlighted not only the individual talent of the players, but the capabilities of the offense when forced to actually throw it downfield consistently. Granted it was by sheer necessity, but that was the first game in recent memory that really highlighted what this team could be when they use the pass to set up the run and not vice versa. I mean, Lamar literally had over 500 yards of offense, and 442 of that was passing.

[RavensfanRD]

I mean, we all knew it was officially over, but good to see LJ8 speak on it I guess. What could've been in '22. What could've been.