vegas492 Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 13 hours ago, CWood21 said: We're not talking about is he worth spending money on him. We're talking about him being a WR4 or WR5 on any team. Name me a SINGLE player who is a WR4 or WR5 that's CLEARLY better than Allen Lazard. Christian Watson? You know, if Lazard was defacto #1, Cobb #2, Doubs #3... And that's all I got. I thought for sure I'd find a real name for you from Cincy...but alas...I did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 13 hours ago, Norm said: Doubt stats matter to those kind of people since they can say his production all game from being forced into lineups. Stats matter but they are also relative to the quality of your teammates as well. Lazard was always going to put up decent stats with GB in 2022 because their WR room was so weak, especially before the emergence of Watson mid-season. I don't know the exact number, but I'm guessing Lazard basically played just about every snap or at least was on the field more than any other WR. That kind of opportunity alone is going to result in targets and therefore decent stats. Now put Lazard on Buffalo where he's behind Diggs and Davis. Put him on Minnesota where he's behind JJ, Thielen and probably Osborn. Even put him in a similar offense like SF where he'd play behind Aiyuk, Samuel and Kittle target-wise. His numbers shrink, probably by more than half simply because he'd be surrounded by other guys better than him. Lazard is what he is....a fine complementary player to have on your team, especially for an offense that likes to run the ball. But if he's on your team and you don't have at least 2 additional receiving threats who are better and more dangerous than him, you're probably going to struggle to consistently move the ball in the passing game, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 9 hours ago, Sandy said: Just to dive into stupid, I checked. He'd be the #4 for Cincinnati, maybe NE, maybe WAS, and arguably DET if you simultaneously believe in Jameson Williams and DJ Chark. But he'd be the best ******* WR4 in the league. The Bengals are the only franchise where I'd say he's definitively WR4 on their roster, and they spent a #5 pick (Ja'Marr Chase), #33 (Tee Higgins), and a #55 pick (Tyler Boyd). That's 3 premium picks on WRs. The Packers have spent just one (Christian Watson). The Bengals clearly put WR at a premium. To be honest, I think Lazard is as good as any of the Patriots' WRs. None of them stand out to me. Washington I'd probably give you since you probably prefer Jahan Dotson to Allen Lazard given draft status. For 2022, Lazard was better. Definitely wouldn't agree with Detroit. Chark and Lazard are in the same tier of WRs for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 57 minutes ago, vegas492 said: Christian Watson? You know, if Lazard was defacto #1, Cobb #2, Doubs #3... And that's all I got. I thought for sure I'd find a real name for you from Cincy...but alas...I did not. Maybe to begin the season. But I think it was pretty clear that Watson was a top 3 WR, I'd argue top 2 WR by the end of the season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 14 hours ago, packfanfb said: Lazard could certainly be a 4-5 and probably even a 3 in some offenses that are run-first. But the notion of him ever being a 1-2 was always laughable and people here tried to convince themselves it was possible because Gute said so. His handling of the WR position was botched from the moment he traded Adams and along with Rodgers' regression, contributed to our poor offense for most of the season. Watson and Doubs have shown some promise, but I don't care who plays QB in 2023, Gute better add some better talent at WR and/or TE if we want to be a contender again. The days of Lazard, Cobb, Watkins and Tonyan plodding around like they're walking in mud need to be over. I don't think it was botched unless you are saying we didn't get into negotiations right away. In the end Adams signed with LV for less money than we were offering and he knew Rodgers was coming back. Other than not talking to Adams' agent sooner I don't know what more Gute could have done to keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 13 hours ago, CWood21 said: I stand by my original comment, who has as WR4 or WR5 that is clearly better than Allen Lazard? Your position is slightly misleading though. It's not about whether there's a WR4 who is better than Lazard, rather, it's about teams who have 3 WRs who would be better than Lazard, thus making him a WR4 on that team. Probably aren't many, but off the top of my head: Minnesota - JJ, Thielen and Osborn (argument that Lazard could maybe be WR3 over Thielen at this point given his age?) LA Chargers - Allen, Williams and Palmer? Now if you bump Lazard up to No. 3, I think you can easily list a ton of NFL teams with 2 WRs better than him. I think most reasonable people would agree that Lazard would be a decent No. 3 on most NFL teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, packfanfb said: I think most reasonable people would agree that Lazard would be a decent No. 3 on most NFL teams. And that's the point I was going with. If the majority of the franchises he'd be a top 3 is 80%+, he's not a WR4 or WR5. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Striker Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 11 minutes ago, CWood21 said: And that's the point I was going with. If the majority of the franchises he'd be a top 3 is 80%+, he's not a WR4 or WR5. Insert the normal disclaimer around PFF grades here, but Lazard was #53 among all WRs this year in terms of grade (below Cobb at 47 and Watson at 26) so that would make him a fringe #2 or the top #3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 46 minutes ago, CWood21 said: The Bengals are the only franchise where I'd say he's definitively WR4 on their roster, and they spent a #5 pick (Ja'Marr Chase), #33 (Tee Higgins), and a #55 pick (Tyler Boyd). That's 3 premium picks on WRs. The Packers have spent just one (Christian Watson). The Bengals clearly put WR at a premium. To be honest, I think Lazard is as good as any of the Patriots' WRs. None of them stand out to me. Washington I'd probably give you since you probably prefer Jahan Dotson to Allen Lazard given draft status. For 2022, Lazard was better. Definitely wouldn't agree with Detroit. Chark and Lazard are in the same tier of WRs for me. Fully agreed. Just listing teams that could be close - right now I'd take Lazard over Dotson and a couple of the NE guys (he's a similar caliber to all three, so he could be the 1 or he could be the 4), and I agree about Chark (and I'm a believer in Williams but he has one career catch at the time of this writing). Most teams he's the 2nd or 3rd best option, even being as objective as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgbeethree Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 (edited) Some fun stats I dug up real quick from 2022.... Lazard 100 targets 788 yards 6 TDs 13 "big" plays Kupp 98 targets 812 yards 6 TDs 11 "big" plays Hopkins 96 targets 717 yards 3 TDs 8 "big" plays Deebo 94 targets 632 yards 2 TDs 7 "big" plays Deebo w/ rushing 865 yards 5 TDs 10 "big" plays I'll just leave those there and do with them what you will. Edited January 18, 2023 by wgbeethree 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 1 hour ago, CWood21 said: And that's the point I was going with. If the majority of the franchises he'd be a top 3 is 80%+, he's not a WR4 or WR5. Right and I'm not paying that guy $10m+ per year or probably anything close to that. For the 2023 season, if I were GM, I would be counting on Doubs to be my No. 3 guy, Watson to be my 1-2 and then adding another 1-2 type player to that group. Not sure if that player exists right now in this poor FA group, so would probably have to consider a trade if one presents itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HokieHigh Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, packfanfb said: Right and I'm not paying that guy $10m+ per year or probably anything close to that. For the 2023 season, if I were GM, I would be counting on Doubs to be my No. 3 guy, Watson to be my 1-2 and then adding another 1-2 type player to that group. Not sure if that player exists right now in this poor FA group, so would probably have to consider a trade if one presents itself. Not a fan of trading for a wr we will have to pay soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 1 minute ago, HokieHigh said: Not a fan of trading for a wr we will have to pay soon. The other option is simply to draft another one on Day 2 and go with the youngest WR core in the league. Not a bad option if you're planning on Love being the QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 7 minutes ago, packfanfb said: Right and I'm not paying that guy $10m+ per year or probably anything close to that. For the 2023 season, if I were GM, I would be counting on Doubs to be my No. 3 guy, Watson to be my 1-2 and then adding another 1-2 type player to that group. Not sure if that player exists right now in this poor FA group, so would probably have to consider a trade if one presents itself. I mean, I think we're all in agreement that we shouldn't overpay Allen Lazard. But if you can get him back on a reasonable contract (3 years, $24M is probably my max), I'm comfortable with a WR room of Lazard, Watson, Doubs, and a semi-high draft pick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HokieHigh Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 5 minutes ago, packfanfb said: The other option is simply to draft another one on Day 2 and go with the youngest WR core in the league. Not a bad option if you're planning on Love being the QB. An acceptable option if rodg stays and we resign bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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