Who is the second best NFL player of all time?

[vegas492]

For me...Bart Starr.  

[Duluther]

23 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I don't really consider 1 season to be a transcendent peak. Especially when Moss has a track record of juicing production of mediocre QBs (Cuplepper, old Cunningham) to become one of the top QBs in the league, statistically.

For transcendent peak, I mean 4-5 year stretch of clearly being the best at his position.  

Culpepper had his best year (both in accumulative stats and efficiency) without Moss. Was the MVP runner-up. So you're wrong on both fronts (Culpepper being mediocre and Moss juicing his production). And at least spell his name correctly.

[biggie.]

23 minutes ago, ET80 said:

 

No, no, no, no, no… don’t engage that one. He’s a lost cause.

He is Vans' successor.

[BetterCallSaul]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

I still don't see Brady as the GOAT. Never had a transcendent peak where he was head and shoulders above his peers, like Rice, LT, Jim Brown, Reggie White. 

Shocking.

Yeah I wonder if he was ever really even that good. He always had elite WR's and just got by based on his pure athletic gifts.

[BetterCallSaul]

4 minutes ago, biggie. said:

He is Vans' successor.

This vans?

[AngusMcFife]

5 minutes ago, Duluther said:

Culpepper had his best year (both in accumulative stats and efficiency) without Moss. Was the MVP runner-up. So you're wrong on both fronts (Culpepper being mediocre and Moss juicing his production). And at least spell his name correctly.

Apologies for the spelling. But Moss was with the Vikings from 1998 to 2004, and Culpepper's best years are clearly 2000 and 2004. 

Culpepper didn't start more than 7 games in any season aside from 2000-4 with the Vikes. You'll have to clarify what you meant. 

[Malfatron]

8 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I was partial to Christian Okoye in Tecmo - people would just bounce off of him.

That guy was truly amazing, especially in Excellent, just popcorning everyone.

For QB, i will saw Jim Kelly is underrate with all those weapons and the Bills playcalls. He can throw endzone to endzone, often for tds

[MWil23]

Jerry Rice has always been the GOAT football player and IMO it's not even close. He's atop basically every single category there is and he played in an era where illegal contact wasn't a thing and offenses didn't have every advantage ever.

He put up the following:

Games		Receiving											Rushing								Total Yds
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	1D	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Y/Tgt	Rush	Yds	TD	1D	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb	AV	Awards
Career					303	284	1640	1549	22895	14.8	197	558	96	5.1	75.6	62.4%	8.4	87	645	10	12	43	7.4	2.1	0.3	1636	14.4	23540	207	27	251
16 yrs		SFO			238	224	1177	1281	19247	15.0	176	372	96	5.4	80.9	64.1%	8.6	84	625	10	11	43	7.4	2.6	0.4	1365	14.6	19872	186	23	216
4 yrs		OAK			54	51	414	243	3286	13.5	18	169	75	4.5	60.9	58.7%	7.9	3	20	0	1	12	6.7	0.4	0.1	246	13.4	3306	18	4	32
1 yr		SEA			11	9	49	25	362	14.5	3	17	56	2.3	32.9	51.0%	7.4			0						25	14.5	362	3		3
1985	23	SFO	WR	80	16	4		49	927	18.9	3		66	3.1	57.9			6	26	1		15	4.3	1.6	0.4	55	17.3	953	4	1	9
1986*+	24	SFO	WR	80	16	15		86	1570	18.3	15		66	5.4	98.1			10	72	1		18	7.2	4.5	0.6	96	17.1	1642	16	2	14	AP MVP-6, AP OPoY-3, AP1, PB
1987*+	25	SFO	WR	80	12	12		65	1078	16.6	22		57	5.4	89.8			8	51	1		17	6.4	4.3	0.7	73	15.5	1129	23	2	15	AP MVP-2, AP OPoY-1, AP1, PB
1988*+	26	SFO	WR	80	16	16		64	1306	20.4	9		96	4.0	81.6			13	107	1		29	8.2	6.7	0.8	77	18.4	1413	10	2	15	AP1, PB
1989*+	27	SFO	WR	80	16	16		82	1483	18.1	17		68	5.1	92.7			5	33	0		17	6.6	2.1	0.3	87	17.4	1516	17	0	17	AP OPoY-2, AP1, PB
1990*+	28	SFO	WR	80	16	16		100	1502	15.0	13		64	6.3	93.9			2	0	0		2	0.0	0.0	0.1	102	14.7	1502	13	1	14	AP MVP-7, AP OPoY-5, AP1, PB
1991*	29	SFO	WR	80	16	16		80	1206	15.1	14		73	5.0	75.4			1	2	0		2	2.0	0.1	0.1	81	14.9	1208	14	1	13	PB
1992*+	30	SFO	WR	80	16	16	139	84	1201	14.3	10		80	5.3	75.1	60.4%	8.6	9	58	1		26	6.4	3.6	0.6	93	13.5	1259	11	2	16	AP1, PB
1993*+	31	SFO	WR	80	16	16	153	98	1503	15.3	15		80	6.1	93.9	64.1%	9.8	3	69	1		43	23.0	4.3	0.2	101	15.6	1572	16	3	20	AP MVP-3, AP OPoY-1, AP1, PB
1994*+	32	SFO	WR	80	16	16	151	112	1499	13.4	13	75	69	7.0	93.7	74.2%	9.9	7	93	2	4	28	13.3	5.8	0.4	119	13.4	1592	15	1	21	AP MVP-3, AP OPoY-3, AP1, PB
1995*+	33	SFO	WR	80	16	16	176	122	1848	15.1	15	74	81	7.6	115.5	69.3%	10.5	5	36	1	3	20	7.2	2.3	0.3	127	14.8	1884	16	3	19	AP MVP-2, AP OPoY-3, AP1, PB
1996*+	34	SFO	WR	80	16	16	153	108	1254	11.6	8	72	39	6.8	78.4	70.6%	8.2	11	77	1	3	38	7.0	4.8	0.7	119	11.2	1331	9	0	14	AP OPoY-5, AP1, PB
1997	35	SFO	WR	80	2	1	8	7	78	11.1	1	4	16	3.5	39.0	87.5%	9.8	1	-10	0	0	-10	-10.0	-5.0	0.5	8	8.5	68	1	0	1
1998*	36	SFO	WR	80	16	16	151	82	1157	14.1	9	57	75	5.1	72.3	54.3%	7.7			0						82	14.1	1157	9	2	12	AP CPoY-4, PB
1999	37	SFO	WR	80	16	16	124	67	830	12.4	5	41	62	4.2	51.9	54.0%	6.7	2	13	0	1	11	6.5	0.8	0.1	69	12.2	843	5	0	7
2000	38	SFO	WR	80	16	16	122	75	805	10.7	7	49	68	4.7	50.3	61.5%	6.6	1	-2	0	0	-2	-2.0	-0.1	0.1	76	10.6	803	7	3	9
2001	39	OAK	WR	80	16	15	125	83	1139	13.7	9	62	40	5.2	71.2	66.4%	9.1			0						83	13.7	1139	9	1	12
2002*	40	OAK	WR	80	16	16	150	92	1211	13.2	7	59	75	5.8	75.7	61.3%	8.1	3	20	0	1	12	6.7	1.3	0.2	95	13.0	1231	7	1	12	AP2, PB
2003	41	OAK	WR	80	16	15	124	63	869	13.8	2	44	47	3.9	54.3	50.8%	7.0			0						63	13.8	869	2	2	7
2004	42	2TM	WR		17	14	64	30	429	14.3	3		56	1.8	25.2	46.9%	6.7			0						30	14.3	429	3	0	4
		OAK	WR	80	6	5	15	5	67	13.4	0	4	18	0.8	11.2	33.3%	4.5			0						5	13.4	67	0	0	1
		SEA	WR	80	11	9	49	25	362	14.5	3	17	56	2.3	32.9	51.0%	7.4			0						25	14.5	362	3	0	3

 

Career				29	29	169	151	2245	14.9	22	51	72	5.2	77.4	62.4%	8.4	7	44	0	1	21	6.3	1.5	0.2	158	14.5	2289	22	3
12 yrs		SFO		23	23	130	124	1811	14.6	19	28	72	5.4	78.7	64.1%	8.6	7	44	0	1	21	6.3	1.9	0.3	131	14.2	1855	19	2
2 yrs		OAK		5	5	39	27	434	16.1	3	23	48	5.4	86.8	69.2%	11.1			0						27	16.1	434	3	1
1 yr		SEA		1	1					0									0									0
85	23	SFO	WR	1	1		4	45	11.3	0	0	20	4.0	45.0					0						4	11.3	45	0	1
1986*+	24	SFO	WR	1	1		3	48	16.0	0	0	24	3.0	48.0					0						3	16.0	48	0	1
1987*+	25	SFO	WR	1	1		3	28	9.3	0	0	13	3.0	28.0					0						3	9.3	28	0	0
1988*+	26	SFO	WR	3	3		21	409	19.5	6	0	61	7.0	136.3		27.3	3	29	0	0	21	9.7	9.7	1.0	24	18.3	438	6	0
1989*+	27	SFO	WR	3	3		19	317	16.7	5	0	72	6.3	105.7		35.2			0						19	16.7	317	5	0
1990*+	28	SFO	WR	2	2		11	122	11.1	1	0	19	5.5	61.0					0						11	11.1	122	1	0
1992*+	30	SFO	WR	2	2	20	14	211	15.1	1	0	36	7.0	105.5	70.0%	10.6	1	9	0	0	9	9.0	4.5	0.5	15	14.7	220	1	0
1993*+	31	SFO	WR	2	2	18	9	126	14.0	0	0	23	4.5	63.0	50.0%	7.0	1	-9	0	0	0	-9.0	-4.5	0.5	10	11.7	117	0	0
1994*+	32	SFO	WR	3	3	27	16	233	14.6	4	13	44	5.3	77.7	59.3%	8.6	1	10	0	1	10	10.0	3.3	0.3	17	14.3	243	4	0
1995*+	33	SFO	WR	1	1	17	11	117	10.6	0	7	32	11.0	117.0	64.7%	6.9	1	5	0	0	5	5.0	5.0	1.0	12	10.2	122	0	0
1996*+	34	SFO	WR	2	2	13	9	86	9.6	1	5	36	4.5	43.0	69.2%	6.6			0						9	9.6	86	1	0
1998*	36	SFO	WR	2	2	11	4	69	17.3	1	3	38	2.0	34.5	36.4%	6.3			0						4	17.3	69	1	0
2001	39	OAK	WR	2	2	19	13	231	17.8	1	12	47	6.5	115.5	68.4%	12.2			0						13	17.8	231	1	0
2002*	40	OAK	WR	3	3	20	14	203	14.5	2	11	48	4.7	67.7	70.0%	10.2			0						14	14.5	203	2	1
2004	42	SEA	WR	1	1					0									0									0	0

 

He'd have over 30,000 receiving yards in the modern game with more targets, infinitely more offensively slanted rules, and the modern lack of emphasis on all things defense.

 

 

[ET80]

Just now, Malfatron said:

That guy was truly amazing, especially in Excellent, just popcorning everyone.

For QB, i will saw Jim Kelly is underrate with all those weapons and the Bills playcalls. He can throw endzone to endzone, often for tds

If you’re ever bored - play as Atlanta and send Deion Sanders on a CB blitz. He can rack up LT like sacks.

[AngusMcFife]

5 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said:

Shocking.

Yeah I wonder if he was ever really even that good. He always had elite WR's and just got by based on his pure athletic gifts.

Please don't be silly. 

Factors to consider greatness:
- Longevity
- Team success
- Peak performance/ability

I personally rank peak performance higher than most. Others think being on successful teams and playing for a long time should have more weight. 

[Darbsk]

What is strange to me is that I wouldn’t dispute that Brady is the overall greatest ever player. However, was he ever considered the unanimous best QB for any single year during his career? I always felt like there was always someone more talented, more highly regarded or better at the same position from a year to year point of view, but obviously his achievements and longevity cannot be argued with. 

The other guys like Jerry Rice, Reggie White, Lawrence Taylor, Joe Montana were all undisputed best players at their own position repeatedly. 

[MWil23]

33 minutes ago, ET80 said:

37 minutes ago, Malfatron said:

Lawrence Taylor

I loved playing as him in tecmo superbowl and squahing the holder before the kicker got the kick away

I was partial to Christian Okoye in Tecmo - people would just bounce off of him.

The Bears with Mike Singletary and Richard Dent to go with Walter at RB were absolutely unbelievable too...but nobody could ever beat me under any circumstances when I was the 49ers. Their shotgun play was literally unstoppable. Even if you called it, you could hit Roger Craig on the 7 and 1/2 yard dig route...to go with their 75% pass play playbook with Montana and Rice and Craig as a lethal RB in his own right.

Kevin Mack also had the Christian Okoye factor on the "bounce off of him" portion for the Browns.

Edited February 1, 2023 by MWil23

[BetterCallSaul]

4 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I personally rank peak performance higher than most. Others think being on successful teams and playing for a long time should have more weight. 

I don't really think the rings are that important for a player's legacy at all. The exception would be if you're the best player on those championship teams. Which Brady was.

 

I think he was 100% the best QB in the NFL for years, regardless of the gaudy stats that some other dudes may have thrown up in his era. His consistency and poise in big moments didn't show up in the stat sheet. And aside from a few years, he really didn't have great weapons. Especially early in NE.

 

But whatever. Some people are going to hate the Patriots and Tom Brady forever because they were successful. And this is coming from a Browns fan that couldn't care less about NE. It's just the truth. The same reason people hate the Warriors. And the Yankees. And LeBron James. They're the dynasties and everyone wants to hate on them. But those people just end up looking really dumb, IMO.

[ET80]

Just now, BetterCallSaul said:

But those people just end up looking really dumb, IMO.

Oh… he’s just getting warmed up.

I’d suggest to ignore him and keep up with the topic of who is the 2nd best player in football (as opposed to the argument he’s TRYING to have).

Let’s stay on topic.

-ET

[ET80]

For the record…

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

In other news - I had somebody blocked and I had no idea why I had them blocked. (Wouldn't be the first time I forgot why I blocked someone).

After reading that old Brady retirement thread, I remember why I had em blocked.

I was referencing him.