Who is the most overrated player in the NFL?

[Soko]

7 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

What makes Burrow more elite than Herbert? A Super Bowl loss? a 16 yard GWD in the playoffs? Having the most dynamic WR corps in the league? Burrow is obviously elite. He's QB2 in the league. But to pretend like Herbert is in the 8-12 range rather than top 5 because he was straddled with some of the worst coaching and defense in the league is absurd.

Why would you ask how Burrow is better than Herbert, and then say he’s QB2 in the league? Why bring up weapons in Burrow’s favor, and not pass protection in Herbert’s favor? Why discuss the defense helping Burrow win games, and not the fact that the Chargers defenses mean that Herbert throws for a ton more bulk stats? Why gloss over Burrow’s postseason success (“a SB loss”), and not bring up Herbert’s god awful postseason attendance thus far?

 

[SmittyBacall]

7 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

What makes Burrow more elite than Herbert? A Super Bowl loss? a 16 yard GWD in the playoffs? Having the most dynamic WR corps in the league? Burrow is obviously elite. He's QB2 in the league.

A contradiction for the ages.

[HerbertGOAT]

1 hour ago, Soko said:

Why would you ask how Burrow is better than Herbert, and then say he’s QB2 in the league? Why bring up weapons in Burrow’s favor, and not pass protection in Herbert’s favor? Why discuss the defense helping Burrow win games, and not the fact that the Chargers defenses mean that Herbert throws for a ton more bulk stats? Why gloss over Burrow’s postseason success (“a SB loss”), and not bring up Herbert’s god awful postseason attendance thus far?

 

I wasn't asking how Burrow is better than Herbert, I was asking why Burrow is elite, or in his own tier below Mahomes when he hasn't really separated himself from Allen or Herbert imo. Burrow is better than them but it's not a night and day difference and a case could be made for any of them to be the best of that group.

 

Why bring up weapons? because Burrows weapons are hardly injured whereas in 2022 Herbert was missing his LT all season, has abysmal play at LG from Matt Feiler, Linsley struggled with injuries, a rookie RG, and the epitome of mid, Trey Pipkins at RT. let's not forget week 18 2021 where Herbert essentially had 4 OL because of Storm Norton playing like a 7 year old. Herbert has had a solid OL when healthy, but they've rarely been healthy. This season should be his best OL of his career, and I'm excited for it.

 

Of course Herbert being down a lot because of his defense leads to bulk stats accumulation. I don't care about bulk stats. Herbert at a rate basis relative to the league was very good in 2020 and 2021, and took a dip in 2022 due to broken ribs for the entire season, the OL injuries and struggles I mentioned earlier, an OC that turned Calvin Johnson into Jericho Cotchery, and an injury crisis at WR that saw us have to start current Raiders WR8 DeAndre Carter and Broncos WR9 Michael Bandy.

 

Burrow has had postseason success, yes. That Super Bowl run was spurred more by great defense than the Bengals offense.

 

Herbert's poor postseason attendance is pretty easily dismissable by the fact that he has had the worst defense over his first 3 seasons out of any QB in NFL history.

 

In addition to the "Herbert can't win" argument, he absolutely had the worst season of his career this year, and yet had the best W-L record of his career. So either playing worse makes the team better, or the QB doesn't have more to do with winning than the other 52 guys on the roster, coaching staff, and front office combined. My money is on the latter.

 

People have a confirmation bias with Herbert. Many, including myself, though he would bust in the league and go the way of Jake Locker or Josh Freeman or Paxton Lynch. The facts though, are that Herbert is a top QB with the worst situation out of any other top QB in the league.

Edited August 8, 2023 by HerbertGOAT

[HerbertGOAT]

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

A contradiction for the ages.

How? Burrow isn't perfect. He has flaws and isn't as clutch as people want to think he is. He's still the most accurate QB in the league and has escapability behind the line only comparable to Mahomes out of the top 10 or so QBs. That doesn't mean his SB run was very impressive. His lone SB run so far not being very impressive doesn't mean he can't or won't have a great one in the near future. The matter of fact is that these guys stories are still being written and it's far to early to christen or crucify them when all of their situations are wildly different. What happens when Burrow only has Chase instead of the arsenal of Higgins, Boyd, or Mixon to spread the ball to? What happens when Hurts' OL degrades to merely above average? What happens when Herbert loses Keenan's elite route running and Ekeler as a safety valve? We don't know. But it's still important to weight situation when judging these guys fairly.

[SmittyBacall]

38 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

How? Burrow isn't perfect. He has flaws and isn't as clutch as people want to think he is. He's still the most accurate QB in the league and has escapability behind the line only comparable to Mahomes out of the top 10 or so QBs. That doesn't mean his SB run was very impressive. His lone SB run so far not being very impressive doesn't mean he can't or won't have a great one in the near future. The matter of fact is that these guys stories are still being written and it's far to early to christen or crucify them when all of their situations are wildly different. What happens when Burrow only has Chase instead of the arsenal of Higgins, Boyd, or Mixon to spread the ball to? What happens when Hurts' OL degrades to merely above average? What happens when Herbert loses Keenan's elite route running and Ekeler as a safety valve? We don't know. But it's still important to weight situation when judging these guys fairly.

My point was, you diminished all of Burrow’s accomplishments and yet still slotted him at two. So obviously those accomplishments mean something in your rankings.

[SmittyBacall]

2 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

I wasn't asking how Burrow is better than Herbert, I was asking why Burrow is elite, or in his own tier below Mahomes when he hasn't really separated himself from Allen or Herbert imo. Burrow is better than them but it's not a night and day difference and a case could be made for any of them to be the best of that group.

I would agree with that. I don’t think Burrow should be in a tier of his own.

2 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

Why bring up weapons? because Burrows weapons are hardly injured whereas in 2022 Herbert was missing his LT all season, has abysmal play at LG from Matt Feiler, Linsley struggled with injuries, a rookie RG, and the epitome of mid, Trey Pipkins at RT. let's not forget week 18 2021 where Herbert essentially had 4 OL because of Storm Norton playing like a 7 year old. Herbert has had a solid OL when healthy, but they've rarely been healthy. This season should be his best OL of his career, and I'm excited for it.

Burrow has great weapons, but he also elevates their play, just as we saw during his final campaign at LSU. He’s also proven to remain productive even when they miss time. 

And don’t talk to me about Burrow and OL play. Our line going into the SB was Jonah Williams, Quinton Spain, Trey Hopkins, Hakeem Adeniji, and Isaiah Prince.

If this offense, particularly the OL and receivers, remains healthy this year we’re going to see a monster season from Burrow that we’ve yet to see him accomplish in the pros. I can’t understate how poor and just how much the OL play has hindered his potential. It’s truly been abysmal. I think at the end of this season when the dust settles, he’ll cement himself as the standalone 2nd fiddle to Mahomes, and slowly creep towards narrowing that gap.

[Soko]

2 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

Why bring up weapons? because Burrows weapons are hardly injured whereas in 2022 Herbert was missing his LT all season, has abysmal play at LG from Matt Feiler, Linsley struggled with injuries, a rookie RG, and the epitome of mid, Trey Pipkins at RT. let's not forget week 18 2021 where Herbert essentially had 4 OL because of Storm Norton playing like a 7 year old. Herbert has had a solid OL when healthy, but they've rarely been healthy. This season should be his best OL of his career, and I'm excited for it.

And yet Herbert still has had better pass protection. You can say Herbert hasn’t had great pass protection either, but let’s call a spade a spade - Burrow’s pass protection has been worse. 

2 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

Herbert's poor postseason attendance is pretty easily dismissable by the fact that he has had the worst defense over his first 3 seasons out of any QB in NFL history.

A stretch, to say the least. 

2 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

People have a confirmation bias with Herbert. Many, including myself, though he would bust in the league and go the way of Jake Locker or Josh Freeman or Paxton Lynch. The facts though, are that Herbert is a top QB with the worst situation out of any other top QB in the league.

Confirmation bias, you say, HerbertGOAT? Interesting. 

I get you’re a Chargers fan and not a Bengals fan (I’m neither), so you’re going to be much more familiar with specific injuries and names regarding the Chargers. But you’re significantly over exaggerating as far as how bad Herbert’s had it, and completely gloss over the things Burrow has had to deal with. That’s more biased than having Burrow in a tier above Herbert. 

[Soggust]

Trevor Lawrence, imo.

Not that he isn't good, just think he's still rated mostly on projection as opposed to his actual production.

[///mcompact]

Herbert and Hurts. 

[Justwinning]

Joey Bosa

[DawgX]

Ramsey comes to mind. It feels like nearly every time I watched the Rams, Ramsey was getting beat far too often for a guy who was supposedly the best CB in the league.

[Thomas5737]

On 8/7/2023 at 10:35 AM, CasperX22 said:

Let's not get crazy.  There are not 12 QB's better than Lamar in this league.  When he was being hyped as a top 2-3 QB a few years ago he was definitely overrated.  If you rank him in the 5-10 range? That's perfectly fine.  Personally I'd put him at 6.

1. Mahomes (tier all to himself)

2. Burrow (tier all to himself)

Next tier

3. Allen

4. Rodgers (not sure he can carry a team all by himself at this point in his career with last season being exhibit A)

5. Hurts

6. Jackson

Next tier

7. Lawrence

8. Herbert (consistently overrated)

Next tier

9. Prescott

10. Stafford

Next tier bunch of middling  starting caliber guys

11. Cousins

12. Goff

13. Tua

14. Geno

15. Watson

16. Murray

17. Wilson

18. Carr

19. Tannehill

Next tier fringe starters/elite backups

20. Fields

21. Mac Jones

22. Daniel Jones

23. Garrapolo

Next tier rookies/placeholders

24. Young (easily could jump up quickly)

25. Pickett

26. Purdy

27. Howell

28. Love

29. Stroud

30. Ridder

31. Baker

32. Minshew

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, if you don't care about on the field production then #6 (or any number) is a good place for him. 

His last two seasons he is averaging 1.5 TDs per game rushing and passing combined and 1 turnover per game, fumbles lost/interceptions combined. 

But he had a great season back in 2019 until the playoffs so he must still be great. 

He isn't gaining a lot of yards over the past 2 seasons (270 per game combined through the air and ground) and he isn't scoring at a high mark. His completion percentage drops every year. He had his worst yards per attempt last season. 

Yet you have him at #6. Yeah, he is overrated. Watson (boo) is 15th and it's only been 3 years since he was great. It's been 4 years for Lamar and he is still hovering around top 5?

I just don't get it. Maybe it's because he has been clutch in the playoffs? Oh wait, that was Flacco. 

Obviously, I'm in the minority and if Lamar has a good year maybe I'll look silly relying on what has happened recently instead of what happened in 2019 and what could happen in the future. However as far as production goes, he has not been top 10 for awhile. If we are basing it off of something besides production then we can all just move anyone to anywhere on the list. 

[AngusMcFife]

4 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

Burrow has great weapons, but he also elevates their play, just as we saw during his final campaign at LSU.

I'm not sure I get this argument. How did Burrow elevate his weapons' play? He certainly didn't do that in 2018 at LSU, or at OSU. Jefferson has been the best WR in the NFL with Cousins throwing the ball. Hard to say how he elevates Chase since Chase has had Burrow in college and the pros. Higgins was dominant in college and average 20 yards/catch with 13 TDs his junior year. 

[AkronsWitness]

3 hours ago, DawgX said:

Ramsey comes to mind. It feels like nearly every time I watched the Rams, Ramsey was getting beat far too often for a guy who was supposedly the best CB in the league.

He was at one point, but he has fallen off each of the past 2ish years. Problem is people still think he is the same player but I think his decline started after that Rams superbowl a few years back.

[StatKing]

On 8/7/2023 at 1:31 PM, Jakuvious said:

I think the problem is that the competition in this generation of QBs is Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Jackson, Hurts, etc. At 25 and younger, from that group, you're talking about 2 MVP winners, a superbowl winner, 3 superbowl appearances, a bunch of playoff wins and appearances, conference championship appearances and wins, division titles, etc. Even Trevor Lawrence now has him beat on playoff success. It is fine that Herbert doesn't have that stuff yet, he's still obviously a very talented, good QB, but in terms of rankings and where he rates among his peers, not having those things when several other guys do is going to hurt him.

And I imagine anyone saying he's overrated is saying so in response to seeing him listed up there with guys like Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Part of the problem with these threads is the disagreement often isn't actually about where we think he should be rated, but where we think other people do rate him. I don't think anyone would say saying that Herbert is a top 10 QB would be overrating him. If he's listed top 5, up there with the big 3 in the AFC, then he probably is being overrated. And that's probably more of the disconnect here.

Football is the ultimate team sport. Almost all of those accolades you listed are from one guy, Patrick Mahomes. Take him off the list and it's pick your poison in my opinion.

I don't think the gap is significant enough between Burrow and Herbert to justify one being considered overrated and the other a consensus top 3 QB. Would Cincinnati make that Super Bowl if their defense didn't force a million turnovers during that run? I doubt it. It's not Herbert's fault ownership won't fire their clown of a head coach.