Who is the most overrated player in the NFL?

[HoboRocket]

On 8/7/2023 at 9:35 AM, CasperX22 said:

Let's not get crazy.  There are not 12 QB's better than Lamar in this league.  When he was being hyped as a top 2-3 QB a few years ago he was definitely overrated.  If you rank him in the 5-10 range? That's perfectly fine.  Personally I'd put him at 6.

1. Mahomes (tier all to himself)

2. Burrow (tier all to himself)

Next tier

3. Allen

4. Rodgers (not sure he can carry a team all by himself at this point in his career with last season being exhibit A)

5. Hurts

6. Jackson

Next tier

7. Lawrence

8. Herbert (consistently overrated)

Next tier

9. Prescott

10. Stafford

Next tier bunch of middling  starting caliber guys

11. Cousins

12. Goff

13. Tua

14. Geno

15. Watson

16. Murray

I mean, even comparing him to Murray at 16 and assessing them as similar level players is fair. 

In the last three seasons, Lamar has played 39 games with a 63.7% completion percentage, 7.3 yards per attempt passing, 6.3 yards per attempt rushing, 10,431 total yards of offense, 71 total TDs, and 29 INTs.

In that same span (including this past season where the offensive roster was absolutely DECIMATED by injury), Kyler Murray has played 41 games, with a 67.7% completion percentage, 7.1 yards per attempt passing, 5.8 yards per attempt rushing, 11,786 total yards of offense, 83 total TDs, and 29 INTs. 

[HerbertGOAT]

On 8/8/2023 at 10:54 AM, Soko said:

And yet Herbert still has had better pass protection. You can say Herbert hasn’t had great pass protection either, but let’s call a spade a spade - Burrow’s pass protection has been worse. 

This is fair.

 

On 8/8/2023 at 10:54 AM, Soko said:

A stretch, to say the least. 

The Chargers have quite literally given up more points in Herbert's first 3 seasons than any other QB's first 3 seasons in NFL history.

"The Chargers have also scored more points and allowed more points in Herbert's starts than any other QB through three seasons since the 1970 merger."

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/justin-herberts-production-warranted-record-breaking-extension-but-will-it-lead-to-chargers-playoff-success/

On 8/8/2023 at 10:54 AM, Soko said:

I get you’re a Chargers fan and not a Bengals fan (I’m neither), so you’re going to be much more familiar with specific injuries and names regarding the Chargers. But you’re significantly over exaggerating as far as how bad Herbert’s had it, and completely gloss over the things Burrow has had to deal with. That’s more biased than having Burrow in a tier above Herbert. 

I don't think I am over exaggerating how bad Herbert has had it. Though obviously far from a dumpster fire like the Browns or Raiders, the Chargers have been the worst situation for a top QB out of all the teams that have a top QB. The Chargers defense has been historically bad under Staley's tenure. Burrow has had to deal with a bad OL, sure. What else? He has a semi-decent HC who came from the McVay offensive tree, and has one of the most dynamic WR corps in the league. Of course it hasn't been all roses for Burrow, but Herbert has had it worse.

[SmittyBacall]

22 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

Burrow has had to deal with a bad OL, sure.

Not bad. Terrible. The leagues worst.

24 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

He has a semi-decent HC who came from the McVay offensive tree

It’s so funny to me how Taylor has gone from a terrible, unqualified dumpster hire, to a now respectable McVay disciple. Oh, and this transition began immediately after Burrow was drafted. Go figure.

26 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

What else?

How about tearing your ACL and coming back from injury?

And a team with Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler shouldn’t be pouting about not having dynamic enough weapons. 

[Soko]

41 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

The Chargers have quite literally given up more points in Herbert's first 3 seasons than any other QB's first 3 seasons in NFL history.

Less than Gabbert’s Jaguars. Less PPG than Baker’s Browns. Less PPG than Ponder’s Vikings. Less than a point less/game more than the Jameis Bucs. Just a few, if you changed it from 3 seasons to 2 seasons, there’s more.

The only reason that applies is because of the 17 game regular season, plenty of QBs don’t last a full 3 seasons, and it’s under the caveat of “in their starts”. If you remove any of those or add context to the numbers, that doesn’t apply anymore.

41 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

I don't think I am over exaggerating how bad Herbert has had it. Though obviously far from a dumpster fire like the Browns or Raiders, the Chargers have been the worst situation for a top QB out of all the teams that have a top QB. The Chargers defense has been historically bad under Staley's tenure. Burrow has had to deal with a bad OL, sure. What else? He has a semi-decent HC who came from the McVay offensive tree, and has one of the most dynamic WR corps in the league. Of course it hasn't been all roses for Burrow, but Herbert has had it worse.

Of the current guys? Lawrence has had it far worse. Having the weapons that Herbert’s had on offense isn’t all that bad. Yeah, the defense hasn’t been great (20th, 29th, and then 22nd in points/drive) but it’s not like we’re talking about those Saints defenses that Drew Brees had. They’re bad but not all-time bad. 

And even then, it depends how you weigh it. Obviously the Ravens have had a better defense, but the Ravens offense has definitely lacked what the Chargers offense has brought to the table. Mahomes has been Mahomes with a bad OL/good playmakers, and a good OL/without many playmakers, and all sorts of defenses in between. Lawrence was throwing to Christian Kirk and Zay Jones this year. Rodgers’ WR1 was Allen Lazard. You might come away from all this and say Herbert’s was still the worst, but it’s not like everyone’s playing on the Eagles and Herbert gets the Browns.

Zac Taylor was a lame duck coach until Burrow became the full time starter. I viewed him as fireable until midway through this year when they learned to attack a Cover 2.

[HoboRocket]

7 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

Not bad. Terrible. The leagues worst. (1)

It’s so funny to me how Taylor has gone from a terrible, unqualified dumpster hire, to a now respectable McVay disciple. Oh, and this transition began immediately after Burrow was drafted. Go figure.

How about tearing your ACL and coming back from injury? (2)

And a team with Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler shouldn’t be pouting about not having dynamic enough weapons. 

1. Worst in the AFC, for sure. The Seahawks were PRETTY bad for like six years, and this past season I'm pretty sure two other NFC West teams had worse OLs. 

2. Burrow is a warrior for coming back from that injury and playing out of his mind. I hope against hope that Kyler can do the same. However, the Bengals have offensive depth that the Chargers just can't compete with. Yes, the Chargers have guys like Allen, Williams, and Slater, but the three of those guys combined for like 26 of 51 possible games played? ChargIRs for sure. Ekeler was healthy though.

[HerbertGOAT]

8 hours ago, Soko said:

Less than Gabbert’s Jaguars. Less PPG than Baker’s Browns. Less PPG than Ponder’s Vikings. Less than a point less/game more than the Jameis Bucs. Just a few, if you changed it from 3 seasons to 2 seasons, there’s more.

So 4 guys who all sucked had worse defenses than Herbert, not really a "gotcha".

8 hours ago, Soko said:

Of the current guys? Lawrence has had it far worse. Having the weapons that Herbert’s had on offense isn’t all that bad. Yeah, the defense hasn’t been great (20th, 29th, and then 22nd in points/drive) but it’s not like we’re talking about those Saints defenses that Drew Brees had. They’re bad but not all-time bad. 

Lawrence had a terrible situation his first season, and then was given a Super Bowl winning HC who knows how to come back from a 27 point deficit rather than lose it and say "it wasn't that bad, I outcoached him in the first half." In regards to the defenses, Herbert's defenses have allowed 25.6 PPG in Herbert's career. Brees's defenses with the Saints allowed 23.4 PPG. The worst 3 year stretch they had was 30.1 PPG, which is to your credit probably the worst stretch anybody's had.

https://twitter.com/NFLonCBS/status/1597960389748150272

https://www.thecoldwire.com/the-chargers-are-looking-to-correct-a-historically-bad-mark/

https://twitter.com/mibpj2/status/1674529686339342336

These things seem "all-time bad" to me.

8 hours ago, Soko said:

And even then, it depends how you weigh it. Obviously the Ravens have had a better defense, but the Ravens offense has definitely lacked what the Chargers offense has brought to the table. Mahomes has been Mahomes with a bad OL/good playmakers, and a good OL/without many playmakers, and all sorts of defenses in between. Lawrence was throwing to Christian Kirk and Zay Jones this year. Rodgers’ WR1 was Allen Lazard. You might come away from all this and say Herbert’s was still the worst, but it’s not like everyone’s playing on the Eagles and Herbert gets the Browns.

Sure the Ravens have lacked star WRs, but have had Mark Andrews who's been penciled in as TE3 for a few years now and the Ravens running game has always been very good, even without Lamar's contribution. Mahomes is the most talented QB of all-time so he's an outlier. He defies comparison to anybody. None of the guys you mentioned had an OC who took Calvin Johnson and made him into Jericho Cotchery.

8 hours ago, Soko said:

Zac Taylor was a lame duck coach until Burrow became the full time starter. I viewed him as fireable until midway through this year when they learned to attack a Cover 2.

Taylor isn't great, that's why I said semi-decent. Brandon Staley's defense is the equivalent of an offensive minded HC getting to be HC of the 49ers and finishing 20th in PPG with everybody healthy.

[HerbertGOAT]

9 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

Not bad. Terrible. The leagues worst.

Sure. No argument from me.

9 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

It’s so funny to me how Taylor has gone from a terrible, unqualified dumpster hire, to a now respectable McVay disciple. Oh, and this transition began immediately after Burrow was drafted. Go figure.

Yeah and Staley was the exact same. Only he's still absolutely terrible.

9 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

How about tearing your ACL and coming back from injury?

Admirable. Though ACL's are not the career-ender they used to be, obviously it still takes a great amount of perseverance to come back and play at a high level. Rehabbing from an ACL and playing a whole season with broken ribs is apples to oranges though.

9 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

And a team with Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler shouldn’t be pouting about not having dynamic enough weapons. 

This is like saying a team with La'el Collins and Alex Cappa shouldn't be pouting about OL play. The Chargers have the most overrated weapons in the league. Keenan is a top 15 WR maybe, Mike is a top 25 WR, and that's when they're healthy. Above all else, the Chargers offense is SLOWWWWW. They have had no juice on that offense for over 3 years. Keenan and Mike are terrible with the ball in their hands. Ekeler is a touchdown vulture. He's good yes, but his production greatly overstates his presence.

[AngusMcFife]

23 hours ago, HoboRocket said:

In that same span (including this past season where the offensive roster was absolutely DECIMATED by injury), Kyler Murray has played 41 games, with a 67.7% completion percentage, 7.1 yards per attempt passing, 5.8 yards per attempt rushing, 11,786 total yards of offense, 83 total TDs, and 29 INTs. 

The 2021 Ravens were by far the most injured team ever measured according to AGL (adjusted games lost), and many of those injuries carried over to 2022. 

[HoboRocket]

9 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

The 2021 Ravens were by far the most injured team ever measured according to AGL (adjusted games lost), and many of those injuries carried over to 2022. 

Very true. While the Cardinals had them beat in 2022, the Ravens still had a lot of injuries and yeah, they did have like 180 games lost in 2021.

[CasperX22]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:21 AM, AngusMcFife said:

The 2021 Ravens were by far the most injured team ever measured according to AGL (adjusted games lost), and many of those injuries carried over to 2022. 

I mean this is kind of the Ravens own fault.  They go harder in training camp and the preseason than any other team in the NFL.  That's great when you jump out to a 4-0 start on September, but not so great when the rest of the league catches up to you in conditioning by November and half your roster is on IR.  John Harbaugh and the Ravens ideologies are outdated and going to handicap them every season until a change is made.

[AngusMcFife]

25 minutes ago, CasperX22 said:

I mean this is kind of the Ravens own fault.  They go harder in training camp and the preseason than any other team in the NFL.  That's great when you jump out to a 4-0 start on September, but not so great when the rest of the league catches up to you in conditioning by November and half your roster is on IR.  John Harbaugh and the Ravens ideologies are outdated and going to handicap them every season until a change is made.

Agreed, but Harbaugh has clearly changed his ways and is conducting less intense training camps. Players have made clear to him that they weren't into his ways and he was receptive to that. 

[DoleINGout]

Malik Cunningham

[Kiwibrown]

Justin  Fields. 

He is a worse Lamar 

[LeotheLion]

Nick Bolton, and I loved him at Mizzou but people talk about him as one of the top LBs in the league after Warner. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

16 hours ago, Kiwibrown said:

Justin  Fields. 

He is a worse Lamar 

I feel like this is really disingenuous to Lamar at this point. Guy is a unanimous MVP who has proven he can pass the ball, but has just had an awful scheme and no WR's ever.

Justin Fields is literally just a guy who can run. He's basically Malik Willis, but starting. He's Marcus Mariota with better mechanics. He's Tyrod Taylor.