Sashi Brown out in Cleveland

[mistakey]

3 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

I guess you can say this, but Sashi's QB decisions were obviously terrible. I don't want him getting another chance at this one, especially in a draft where there is bound to be at least 1 stud QB waiting for us atop the draft. We have the #1 pick. Whoever our GM is better know who to select from this QB group. I think we've seen enough of Sashi to know it's not him.

 

 

According to sources, Sashi didn't think Wentz was any good. And apparently he thought Deshaun Watson was useless, because he was staring us right in the face...with a glaring hole at QB...and we traded him away. Then we took Kizer. A year after having RGIII and Cody Kessler as the QB's. I'll admit it, I was OK with all of these moves at the time, but I'd like to think that someone being paid to do this job would be a better evaluator of QB's than I am. His best QB decision was keeping Josh McCown here last season. That's embarrassing.

 

Peace out Sashi. Take your broken analytical system somewhere else.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/09/browns_hue_jackson_says_carson.html
https://twitter.com/mikesilver/status/720605463708983296

 

oof
receipts show that maybe just sashi was listening to qb guru?

[mistakey]

6 minutes ago, Tony7188 said:

Passing on 2 franchise QBs and going 1-27 (most likely 1-31) in two seasons is too much for him to stomach imo. Marinelli went 0-16 with the Lions and that was the death nail for his head coaching opportunities. To be that abysmal on the football field, heads have to roll.  

yeah wrong head rolled

[Bonanza23]

59 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

That's entirely fair - but let's look at the guys they did get who are positive VORP guys:

 2016

Corey Coleman, Ogbah, Nassib, Shon Coleman, Joe Schobert, Seth Devalve.   All starters (and Coleman dinged only because of injury), and all get graded positively.  So not just starters on a bad team.   But are they decent starters or by default?

Corey Coleman - only issue has been hand injuries, otherwise true impact 1st/2nd WR on a decent O.

Ogbah & Nassib - legit starters on what is the best part of CLE's D - run D and pass rush.  Ogbah's 2016 rookie year really pointed to even more impact, but injuries hurt him this year.   Nassib has levelled out, which is fair. 

Schobert - looked like a possible bust, until they stood him up then a major revelation - https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-browns-schobert-benefiting-from-move-to-off-ball-lb

Shon Coleman - it's fair to see the starter label is more faint praise than legit here.   Still, he's young, so room to improve, and has the RT skillset.  But yeah, this one's iffier. 

Devalve - very effective blocker, and a solid (if unspectacular) receiving TE.   Nothing wrong with that in a Day 3 pick.

Let's turn to 2017....

2017

Garrett, (trade for 2018 1st, now top 10), Njoku, Peppers, Kizer, Ogunjobi are starters.

Garrett - obviously an impact guy.  At 1.1 you should expect no less.   Only points you give are for not taking QB for him (obviously correct call)

Njoku - the most raw of the 1st/2nd round TE except Shaheen.   But the highest ceiling, and his 1st year success actually predicts great things - most rookie TE's do nothing at all.

Peppers - definitely a guy who is learning on the job.  To be fair, that was exactly known when drafted, and frankly I think part of the plan (more on that)

Kizer - sacrificial lamb QB, flyer.   Can't say anything good - except he's likely getting them 1.1.

Ogunjobi - DT starter on DL, and actually playing well again.   For a 1st year guy, excellent result.

Unfortunate that Howard Wilson tore his ACL, while Roderick Johnson is a developmental T.    Brantley contributing in rotation, average.

And for 2017, here's the thing - Year 1 is rarely when rookies contribute outside of top 10 elite guys (Garrett doesn't merit extra marks), or players at easy positions for impact (like RB).   So for Njoku & Ogunjobi to be actually positive impact guys - is outstanding.   That's what that Tweet is pointing to - Year 3-4 is when drafts should pay off to impact starters - and where the author there sees 20 potential 2-year starters on a legit team.   Yes, they need a QB to get there - but they have the resources in cap $ and picks to get it done.   So I get where the 20/24 argument comes off - and even in legit impact terms, still very possible - and even if it's only 12/24 impact starters, that is an AMAZING result.  Yet Brown's the one guy Haslem fires?   SMH. 

And to be clear - what's killed CLE the most this year?  It's not a lack of talent on a bad team overall - for the O, it's all on Kizer (CLE"s secondary is their other area that needs addressing, entirely fair).   At last count, 10 turnovers inside the opponent's 5-yard line.  TEN.    Now, you can then say "hey that's why GM Brown got fired" - but Kizer was their flyer pick, 5th pick taken in 2017.  That's not a priority guy that late in CLE's draft.    If Kizer doesn't work out (and he hasn't) - they have 100M in cap space, and 1.1 ready for 2018 - which let's face it, they were always gunning for.    Their attempt to get Cousins for 1.12 and 2.1 in 2016 (confirmed multiple sources) shows Brown had a plan for legit QB....and once that failed, he was going to be patient for 2018 - it's only Hue & Haslem's impatience which led to the ill-guided attempt to get McCarron - where Brown again saved Haslem & Hue from themselves. 

Taking Kizer & Peppers is also explained by the focus of the 2017 draft away from help-right-away guys - Njoku, Peppers, Brantley were guys aimed at impacting 2018, a developmental year was clearly in the scouting report.    Why?  Because of Brown's very clear focus to 2018+.  It's why he traded for Brock Osweiler's  16M contract, get what now is a top 10 2nd round pick (top 40 overall)...for 2018.   2 1sts, 3 2nds, 3 3rds.   A 2017 draft class meant for 2018+ (which is how drafts should be considered anyways, outside of early Rd1 talent). 

It's fair to say the starter angle is oversimplified - but a deeper analysis shows Brown's plan was working, provided the QB hits in 2018 - and the Browns have 100M in cap space, and 1.1 (plus at top 10 pick in HOU, 2.1 and a top-10 2nd round from HOU)...so they can get any QB that's available in the 2018 draft, or a guy like Cousins (who they clearly targeted as plan A in 2016).      When a GM like Brown took over CLE, he told Haslem it was a 3-year plan - and 2018 was the target payoff.   So ironic that the team is poised to get there - and yet he's the one that gets canned for following the plan as he laid out. 

Brown's drafting and accumulation of cap space and 2018 picks have CLE set up to finally pay off for their 2-year rebuild that he started - so ironic that Haslem chose to keep the guy that would have set them back 2 years by taking McCarron over the Cousins / Rosen-Darnold choice (and CLE wasn't making any noise with McCarron this year, all done to save Hue's job and cater to Haslem's impatience).   And can the guy who has rebuilt them talent and resource-wise to the edge where they actually become legit and relevant once they get their QB this offseason...a QB choice that Brown made possible.   SMH.

This unfortunately will fall on deaf ears that just hate smart people. 

[Bonanza23]

57 minutes ago, TitanLegend said:

The Vols finally got rid of Haslam's influence over our football program. Hopefully for you guys he loses ownership of the team over his legal troubles. Guy is a complete idiot.

Please tell us how you did it so we can do the same!

[bzane]

12 minutes ago, Tony7188 said:

I was rooting for Wentz up until the Browns trade and Wentz got drafted by the Philadelphia Eagles. Now he's dead to me.

Well! Carson, on the other hand, says that his time with you was special, and that you shall live on- in his heart- forever!

[Bonanza23]

13 minutes ago, mistakey said:

 

whaaaaaaaaaaaa

Haha get him mistakey!

[TitanLegend]

4 minutes ago, Bonanza23 said:

Please tell us how you did it so we can do the same!

Other big money boosters got sick of his **** and put in an AD that doesn't bow to his every word.

[paul-mac]

People rush to kill Brown for passing on Wentz, but these people need to consider that Wentz might not have been the same player had he been taken by the Browns.

 

Part of the reason he's been so good in Philly is the surrounding talent, coaching, locker room culture etc. If you look at the QBs that Cleveland have drafted recently, they weren't all destined to be bad players. Brady Quinn in particular is one guy who could have done really well in the right spot. They failed because the Browns set them up to fail and Sashi has tried to stock a roster up with talent to put their eventual QB in a position to succeed. Personally I'd have fired Hue because I think the reason they're 0-12 is not because they're a talentless team, but they're a talented team that is failing to get the most out of their players.

[Bonanza23]

1 minute ago, TitanLegend said:

Other big money boosters got sick of his **** and put in an AD that doesn't bow to his every word.

Aww crap I don’t think we can do that. We’re screwed. 

[Tony7188]

19 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

They really don't though.

If you were told it would be a 3-5 year plan and you fire them after 1 3/4 years, the guy doing the firing is either a. Impatient, b. Incompetent or c., didn't understand the plan in the first place or d. All of the above, which is Jimmy Haslam.

Jimmy Haslam is a toxic owner, but he's not going anywhere so Browns fans have to get used to Jimmy's way.

But just to play Devil's Advocate: If you were the owner and you watched your GM trade away 2 franchise QBs, go on a historic decline by having the worst record of any team in a 2 year span and potentially go 0-16 this year (becoming the 2nd team in NFL history to this), would you care that the GM told you that it would be a 3-5 year plan to fix the Browns? What hope would you have that this GM wouldn't trade away a 3rd franchise QB?

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, Tony7188 said:

Jimmy Haslam is a toxic owner, but he's not going anywhere so Browns fans have to get used to Jimmy's way.

But just to play Devil's Advocate: If you were the owner and you watched your GM trade away 2 franchise QBs, go on a historic decline by having the worst record of any team in a 2 year span and potentially go 0-16 this year (becoming the 2nd team in NFL history to this), would you care that the GM told you that it would be a 3-5 year plan to fix the Browns? What hope would you have that this GM wouldn't trade away a 3rd franchise QB?

If I were Haslam I would have mandated that Hue hire an OC and Sashi address the qb with our first pick, no more kicking the can down the road, and he can continue the moneyball approach after that.

That's it.

[buno67]

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

If I were Haslam I would have mandated that Hue hire an OC and Sashi address the qb with our first pick, no more kicking the can down the road, and he can continue the moneyball approach after that.

That's it.

Yeah one of the browns biggest issues, one of many was Hue not having an OC. That’s not on Haslem. You could purely blame Haslem if needed but there were a lot of issues.  

Inexperience in the FO

Over egotistical from the HC

Impatience owner

hell everyone likes to blame sashi for the missed QBs but Hue is to blame. Never heard stories about him pounding the table for a QB like Wentz or Watson. 

Browns took a step forward firing Sashi but might of taken two steps back committing to Hue to 2018. If you’re gonna hire a new FO let them pick their own HC

[Tony7188]

34 minutes ago, mistakey said:

yeah wrong head rolled

I agree. While I think Hue was given somewhat of a raw deal, he and Sashi were both in this together. If the team finishes 0-16 both should've be fired.

[Tony7188]

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

If I were Haslam I would have mandated that Hue hire an OC and Sashi address the qb with our first pick, no more kicking the can down the road, and he can continue the moneyball approach after that.

That's it.

But wasn't it ownership that forced the Cleveland F.O. to draft Johnny Manziel? If I recall correctly the coaches wanted Carr and the F.O. wanted Bridgewater...

[Tony7188]

13 minutes ago, buno67 said:

hell everyone likes to blame sashi for the missed QBs but Hue is to blame. Never heard stories about him pounding the table for a QB like Wentz or Watson. 

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/12/hue_jackson_preferred_carson_w.html