Sashi Brown out in Cleveland

[TheKillerNacho]

But... metrics tho!

[wackywabbit]

4 minutes ago, zappa13004 said:

Who was rooting for Wentz or Watson in March 2016 and 2017 ?

Me for both of them. Said the browns made a mistake passing on Wentz on draft day 2016. Said the browns made a mistake passing on Watson on draft day 2017.

The idea that no one could have predicted those QBs would be really good is lazy and false. The Eagles and Texans both gave up a lot to move significantly up the board and take them.

[bzane]

I for one will never understand why and how Sushi failed. I mean, he and Paul had the complete tool box to succeed!

 

[ILoveTheVikings]

So much for their process being masterfully orchestrated

[bzane]

-Could this mean that Ryan Grigson, already on-board in personnel, will now be exalted to General Manager or Major Domo or Head of Football Stuff or whatever the position is?

Who better to carry on the Cleveland tradition of sexy drafting, than Ryan Grigson?

 

"Hmmmmmmmmm!"

[DawgX]

20 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

I don't think trading for McCarron was out of desperation. For what they offered, they really wanted him. Further, if they like the QBs in the draft more than McCarron like you intimate, they wouldn't have tried to trade for McCarron.

Not necessarily. It could be that Hue was desperate because he thought his job was possibly on the line. And Sashi realized what a horrible idea it was to trade a second and third for him, so he sabotaged the trade.

[Reginaldm9]

Hue Jackson is like President Underwood in House of Cards except that the house of cards has already toppled. 

[Rich7sena]

Just now, DawgX said:

Not necessarily. It could be that Hue was desperate because he thought his job was possibly on the line. And Sashi realized what a horrible idea it was to trade a second and third for him, so he sabotaged the trade.

Seems like wishful thinking.

[Broncofan]

13 minutes ago, DawgX said:

Not necessarily. It could be that Hue was desperate because he thought his job was possibly on the line. And Sashi realized what a horrible idea it was to trade a second and third for him, so he sabotaged the trade.

Ding ding ding we have a winner folks.  Just forgot to add “and Haslem” to Hue.   Brown saved the org from that.  And got fired as his reward.   SMH.  

The one miss I get why he takes heat for is Watson.  But that was with hindsight.  Wentz the haul they got if they had passed Wentz would be a great player around an awful team.   Wentz deal they had to make to restore the talent pool.  And here’s what Brown did with that:  

And in 2018 it’s either 1.1 Darnold / Rosen or Cousins with the Hou 1st / 2.1 (and again to be clear they offered this in 2016 Phi 1st 1.12 & their 2016 2.1 WAS declined but this was plan A) that they didn’t spend on McCarron.  Because Brown blocked it.  And also created 100M of cap room.  

SMH so typical of Haslem to fire the guy who has brought them back and keep the guy who would have set the franchise back another 2 years by committing to McCarron over those choices.  

[DawgX]

2 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

Seems like wishful thinking.

Not sure how. Obviously we can't say for sure, but it seems like a very plausible scenario IMO.

[MWil23]

3 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

Seems like wishful thinking.

We're Browns fans. Without wishful thinking there's really not much of an alternative.

[ILoveTheVikings]

29 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Ding ding ding we have a winner folks.  Just forgot to add “and Haslem” to Hue.   Brown saved the org from that.  And got fired as his reward.   SMH.  

The one miss I get why he takes heat for is Watson.  But that was with hindsight.  Wentz the haul they got if they had passed Wentz would be a great player around an awful team.   Wentz deal they had to make to restore the talent pool.  And here’s what Brown did with that:  

And in 2018 it’s either 1.1 Darnold / Rosen or Cousins with the Hou 1st / 2.1 (and again to be clear they offered this in 2016 Phi 1st 1.12 & their 2016 2.1 WAS declined but this was plan A) that they didn’t spend on McCarron.  Because Brown blocked it.  And also created 100M of cap room.  

SMH so typical of Haslem to fire the guy who has brought them back and keep the guy who would have set the franchise back another 2 years by committing to McCarron over those choices.  

Flawed view.  They aren't really contributing to wins. Easy to get your picks on the field when you go full 76er style tank.

[CP3MVP]

Starters on a historically bad team is irrelevant. The 2007-2009 rams had “starters”. The question you ask is can these “starters” start on the best teams in the league.

[MSURacerDT55]

2 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Didn't Sashi save Cleveland from trading a second and third round pick for AJ ******* McCarron?

Quietly a good move though he was still a dead man walking

[Broncofan]

38 minutes ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

Flawed view.  They aren't really contributing to wins. Easy to get your picks on the field when you go full 76er style tank.

That's entirely fair - but let's look at the guys they did get who are positive VORP guys:

 2016

Corey Coleman, Ogbah, Nassib, Shon Coleman, Joe Schobert, Seth Devalve.   All starters (and Coleman dinged only because of injury), and all get graded positively.  So not just starters on a bad team.   But are they decent starters or by default?

Corey Coleman - only issue has been hand injuries, otherwise true impact 1st/2nd WR on a decent O.

Ogbah & Nassib - legit starters on what is the best part of CLE's D - run D and pass rush.  Ogbah's 2016 rookie year really pointed to even more impact, but injuries hurt him this year.   Nassib has levelled out, which is fair. 

Schobert - looked like a possible bust, until they stood him up then a major revelation - https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-browns-schobert-benefiting-from-move-to-off-ball-lb

Shon Coleman - it's fair to see the starter label is more faint praise than legit here.   Still, he's young, so room to improve, and has the RT skillset.  But yeah, this one's iffier. 

Devalve - very effective blocker, and a solid (if unspectacular) receiving TE.   Nothing wrong with that in a Day 3 pick.

Let's turn to 2017....

2017

Garrett, (trade for 2018 1st, now top 10), Njoku, Peppers, Kizer, Ogunjobi are starters.

Garrett - obviously an impact guy.  At 1.1 you should expect no less.   Only points you give are for not taking QB for him (obviously correct call)

Njoku - the most raw of the 1st/2nd round TE except Shaheen.   But the highest ceiling, and his 1st year success actually predicts great things - most rookie TE's do nothing at all.

Peppers - definitely a guy who is learning on the job.  To be fair, that was exactly known when drafted, and frankly I think part of the plan (more on that)

Kizer - sacrificial lamb QB, flyer.   Can't say anything good - except he's likely getting them 1.1.

Ogunjobi - DT starter on DL, and actually playing well again.   For a 1st year guy, excellent result.

Unfortunate that Howard Wilson tore his ACL, while Roderick Johnson is a developmental T.    Brantley contributing in rotation, average.

And for 2017, here's the thing - Year 1 is rarely when rookies contribute outside of top 10 elite guys (Garrett doesn't merit extra marks), or players at easy positions for impact (like RB).   So for Njoku & Ogunjobi to be actually positive impact guys - is outstanding.   That's what that Tweet is pointing to - Year 3-4 is when drafts should pay off to impact starters - and where the author there sees 20 potential 2-year starters on a legit team.   Yes, they need a QB to get there - but they have the resources in cap $ and picks to get it done.   So I get where the 20/24 argument comes off - and even in legit impact terms, still very possible - and even if it's only 12/24 impact starters, that is an AMAZING result.  Yet Brown's the one guy Haslem fires?   SMH. 

And to be clear - what's killed CLE the most this year?  It's not a lack of talent on a bad team overall - for the O, it's all on Kizer (CLE"s secondary is their other area that needs addressing, entirely fair).   At last count, 10 turnovers inside the opponent's 5-yard line.  TEN.    Now, you can then say "hey that's why GM Brown got fired" - but Kizer was their flyer pick, 5th pick taken in 2017.  That's not a priority guy that late in CLE's draft.    If Kizer doesn't work out (and he hasn't) - they have 100M in cap space, and 1.1 ready for 2018 - which let's face it, they were always gunning for.    Their attempt to get Cousins for 1.12 and 2.1 in 2016 (confirmed multiple sources) shows Brown had a plan for legit QB....and once that failed, he was going to be patient for 2018 - it's only Hue & Haslem's impatience which led to the ill-guided attempt to get McCarron - where Brown again saved Haslem & Hue from themselves. 

Taking Kizer & Peppers is also explained by the focus of the 2017 draft away from help-right-away guys - Njoku, Peppers, Brantley were guys aimed at impacting 2018, a developmental year was clearly in the scouting report.    Why?  Because of Brown's very clear focus to 2018+.  It's why he traded for Brock Osweiler's  16M contract, get what now is a top 10 2nd round pick (top 40 overall)...for 2018.   2 1sts, 3 2nds, 3 3rds.   A 2017 draft class meant for 2018+ (which is how drafts should be considered anyways, outside of early Rd1 talent). 

It's fair to say the starter angle is oversimplified - but a deeper analysis shows Brown's plan was working, provided the QB hits in 2018 - and the Browns have 100M in cap space, and 1.1 (plus at top 10 pick in HOU, 2.1 and a top-10 2nd round from HOU)...so they can get any QB that's available in the 2018 draft, or a guy like Cousins (who they clearly targeted as plan A in 2016).      When a GM like Brown took over CLE, he told Haslem it was a 3-year plan - and 2018 was the target payoff.   So ironic that the team is poised to get there - and yet he's the one that gets canned for following the plan as he laid out. 

Brown's drafting and accumulation of cap space and 2018 picks have CLE set up to finally pay off for their 2-year rebuild that he started - so ironic that Haslem chose to keep the guy that would have set them back 2 years by taking McCarron over the Cousins / Rosen-Darnold choice (and CLE wasn't making any noise with McCarron this year, all done to save Hue's job and cater to Haslem's impatience).   And can the guy who has rebuilt them talent and resource-wise to the edge where they actually become legit and relevant once they get their QB this offseason...a QB choice that Brown made possible.   SMH.