Week 5 GDT: Broncos vs. NY Jets

[jsthomp2007]

20 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

I've been thinking about that too. Or go back a little further with the decision to fire Mike - terrible. Outside the 4 seasons with PM, we've sucked and sucked again. This is complete madness. 

True, could you imagine if we had kept Mike, who would eventually groom his sone to take over? I mean, I know some guys hate nepotism, but these guys create systems that works, where you can plug in a 7th round QB who looks like the second coming of Kurt Warner. 

[AkronsWitness]

4 hours ago, Broncofan said:

For as good as Payton is about maximizing matchups and game prep pre-game, he has 3 flaws in an otherwise stellar OC portfolio: 

1.  He absolutely falls in love with some guys over others.   Adam Trautman is our example but Taysom Hill is an even better one.  
 

2.  He gets cute way too often in big moments.   It’s almost like he can’t resist trying to show everyone how smart he is.   The double reverse was yet another example.   
 

3.  He’s not great at clock management.   Didn’t affect us this game but it sure did in the WAS game (the Hail Mary covered this up a lot - no way we take 5 mins to drive down 2 scores; literally wasted 90-120 secs that drive alone - which to be fair, Russ owns part of that as well). 
 

Don’t get me wrong - he’s a top 5 O mind.   The fact he’s got the O as functional as it has been with almost all the same guys (I’d argue Trautman is a downgrade from what we had even last year in the receiving dep’t; and we haven’t used Mims enough to show his true impact).      But the play call there and his 2H panic mode and his RZ play calling did cost us yesterday.   Payton owns his share there.    
 

Still a great O mind but no one is perfect.  Just his mistakes were costly yesterday.    That’s ok - I expect he’ll bounce back; we’ve seen so much progress on O with limited tools I’m confident he’ll have the O in great shape next year.   

I wish I could be this positive thinking lol I just feel like the losing and not just losing--but losing in embarrassing fashion the last few years has really taken a toll (at least on me and probably others from what Im reading)

Regardless of who is 'at fault' I believe it its the entire operation and this truely feels like a transition season. Transition from the 'old roster' where guys like Simmons/Sutton/Jeudy/Bolles are all likely to be gone at the deadline to a team/roster that is built to Paytons style and liking next season. 

Get rid of the dead weight or veteran players who can fetch a draft pick in a trade for next year--start the young guys (Bonnito/Mims/McLaughlin/Cooper/Sanders/ect) to see what you have. That way you can go into next year in prime position to draft either Williams/Maye and begin your proper rebuild with no large salaries to veteran players on the books.

Next year can finally be the season the Broncos draft a top tier QB prospect in forever and properly do a rebuild. None of this bandaid/patched together roster construction trying to compete for a wild card spot anymore. Take your medicine one last time this year and strip it down, bring in 'your guys' for next season with actual direction and timeline for success with the team.

Edited October 9, 2023 by AkronsWitness

[Broncofan]

45 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

I wish I could be this positive thinking lol I just feel like the losing and not just losing--but losing in embarrassing fashion the last few years has really taken a toll (at least on me and probably others from what Im reading)

Regardless of who is 'at fault' I believe it its the entire operation and this truely feels like a transition season. Transition from the 'old roster' where guys like Simmons/Sutton/Jeudy/Bolles are all likely to be gone at the deadline to a team/roster that is built to Paytons style and liking next season. 

Get rid of the dead weight or veteran players who can fetch a draft pick in a trade for next year--start the young guys (Bonnito/Mims/McLaughlin/Cooper/Sanders/ect) to see what you have. That way you can go into next year in prime position to draft either Williams/Maye and begin your proper rebuild with no large salaries to veteran players on the books.

Next year can finally be the season the Broncos draft a top tier QB prospect in forever and properly do a rebuild. None of this bandaid/patched together roster construction trying to compete for a wild card spot anymore. Take your medicine one last time this year and strip it down, bring in 'your guys' for next season with actual direction and timeline for success with the team.

The 2 guys I'd argue you don't give away unless you get a Rd2 pick are Jeudy and Simmons.   I think we need to upgrade the OL, but I wouldn't give away Bolles for a Day 3 pick, either.

3 reasons:

1.  You still have a cap floor every year - you can't just have a 50M team. There is a spending floor.   So spend on guys who actually make a difference.   Jeudy is still the only guy who separates out of the group who plays a full route tree.    Mims obv could be that guy, but there's more than enough room for 2, especially at rookie contracts.   When Mims gets expensive, or when Jeudy REALLY gets pricey, sure, you can make that call.  But giving away Simmons or Jeudy for Day 3 picks would be a MASSIVE mistake, as @BroncoBruin alluded to.

2.  Re: Jeudy, if you have a rookie QB - nothing is better than having decent skill position guys, and a functional OL.   Look at Bryce Young with that CAR motley crew.   Now CAR made a massive mistake with Young over Stroud, but they've compounded it with horrible OL play, and very few to no skill guys.  It definitely accelerates a QB's growth curve to have OL play and skill guys who can maximize on the output.

3.  Whether we like to admit it or not, T's are hard to find.  I am ALL for drafting and developing our next T as well - but the urge to simply cleanse the roster, well it shouldn't come unless we know we have someone ready to take over.   It would be different if we thought we had a successor, but that's still on the horizon (as much as I like Palczewksi, he screams RT more than LT).

At this stage, I know it's easy to want to wipe the slate clean - but the trade market seldom provides the same return.   We don't need more Day 3 picks, as much as we need to stop trading away the Day 1-2 picks we have - fortunately, we're now through that phase.   Now, if you can get R2 picks for Jeudy / Simmons, sure, absolutely make that call.  But if you can't, they're fine to keep.   They're not the problem, and if you find the QB, they're actually part of the solution.    And yes, even though I hated the pick when it happened, even Bolles can be part of the short-term solution (you do want to upgrade if you can, but if not, he's not the issue we have), and certainly trading him away for a Day 3 pick doesn't make much sense - if you can get an early R3 pick, then obviously think it over. 

But guys like Sutton, Jewell, even Alex Singleton - they're at or past their peak, and they're not difference-makers, so yes, you can trade the for Day 3 picks, and let younger guys learn in a painful year.   Definitely trade the Frank Clarks of the world, they aren't going to be here next year.   But it only extends so far.   I'll stand on this hill.   Even though it's easy to say clean house entirely - you still need a core, and if you don't have a difference-maker ceiling guy at a skill position like WR1, FS, or T, then you don't trade them for Day 3 picks, it's got to be at a premium.  If it's not, there's nothing wrong with keeping those guys.    My 2 cents. 

 

PS - I should have qualified my last statement - I think Payton will have the O in great shape next year - if we are able to land a QB he believes in.   Russell Wilson isn't that guy.   I totally get the pessimism if it's infinite years of Russell  Wilson.  Payton is doing a great job maximizing the O with Russell's limitations, but in my future, I'm hoping for a Drake Maye type guy (we're not bad enough to get 1.1, though - although we're pretty bad, crazy to say there are 2-3 teams that are in worse shape.  Crazy, I know).  Russ could be the 2024 starter, but he's not the solution (R1 QB, Russ a transition QB or in the dream world, traded with a lot of the dead money unloaded - but even if we had to use him as the vet bridge, we'd be OK cap-wise, just would be in amazing shape if you can convince someone to take 75% of the remaining $ alone).

 

PSS - FWIW, I get it's got to be a complete rebuild.  I think I was asked if I'd accept the rebuild years post-Russ - and I said as much back then.  Obv I wasn't expecting it to be right away (LOL).  But to me, the tougher part of being a DEN fan was when Elway foolishly wouldn't commit to a rebuild from 2017-19, when it was painfully obvious.   I want us to win and be contenders, but if we can't, I'd much rather we commit to a full rebuild.   So I have no problem with going that way.   But even in a full rebuild, it doesn't mean you get rid of everyone - just the guys who aren't difference-maker and/or those that won't be around to help when we can get back there.  Simmons & Jeudy can still be those guys in 2025, so if we aren't getting a premium return - then stick it out, at least for this year, and see what next offseason brings.  That's all.   As for optimism, I have it because Payton looks THAT good as an O mind, and we're likely embracing the full rebuild now - give me that over the Elway 2017-19 years every day. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Broncofan

[jolly red giant]

1 hour ago, jsthomp2007 said:

True, could you imagine if we had kept Mike, who would eventually groom his sone to take over? I mean, I know some guys hate nepotism, but these guys create systems that works, where you can plug in a 7th round QB who looks like the second coming of Kurt Warner. 

Things did need to change with Mike - specifically he needed a proper GM to work with him. But the guy who is directly responsible for the dumpster fire that now exists in Denver is one Joe Ellis. There are few people who have done more to destroy any team that Ellis - and all down to a personal animosity with Mike Shanahan. Anyone who makes decisions based on personal animosity (and he made several disasterous decisions) should never be let near the levers of power of any organisation of any type.

[AkronsWitness]

37 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The 2 guys I'd argue you don't give away unless you get a Rd2 pick are Jeudy and Simmons.   I think we need to upgrade the OL, but I wouldn't give away Bolles for a Day 3 pick, either.

3 reasons:

1.  You still have a cap floor every year - you can't just have a 50M team. There is a spending floor.   So spend on guys who actually make a difference.   Jeudy is still the only guy who separates out of the group who plays a full route tree.    Mims obv could be that guy, but there's more than enough room for 2, especially at rookie contracts.   When Mims gets expensive, or when Jeudy REALLY gets pricey, sure, you can make that call.  But giving away Simmons or Jeudy for Day 3 picks would be a MASSIVE mistake, as @BroncoBruin alluded to.

2.  Re: Jeudy, if you have a rookie QB - nothing is better than having decent skill position guys, and a functional OL.   Look at Bryce Young with that CAR motley crew.   Now CAR made a massive mistake with Young over Stroud, but they've compounded it with horrible OL play, and very few to no skill guys.  It definitely accelerates a QB's growth curve to have OL play and skill guys who can maximize on the output.

3.  Whether we like to admit it or not, T's are hard to find.  I am ALL for drafting and developing our next T as well - but the urge to simply cleanse the roster, well it shouldn't come unless we know we have someone ready to take over.   It would be different if we thought we had a successor, but that's still on the horizon (as much as I like Palczewksi, he screams RT more than LT).

At this stage, I know it's easy to want to wipe the slate clean - but the trade market seldom provides the same return.   We don't need more Day 3 picks, as much as we need to stop trading away the Day 1-2 picks we have - fortunately, we're now through that phase.   Now, if you can get R2 picks for Jeudy / Simmons, sure, absolutely make that call.  But if you can't, they're fine to keep.   They're not the problem, and if you find the QB, they're actually part of the solution.    And yes, even though I hated the pick when it happened, even Bolles can be part of the short-term solution (you do want to upgrade if you can, but if not, he's not the issue we have), and certainly trading him away for a Day 3 pick doesn't make much sense - if you can get an early R3 pick, then obviously think it over. 

But guys like Sutton, Jewell, even Alex Singleton - they're at or past their peak, and they're not difference-makers, so yes, you can trade the for Day 3 picks, and let younger guys learn in a painful year.   Definitely trade the Frank Clarks of the world, they aren't going to be here next year.   But it only extends so far.   I'll stand on this hill.   Even though it's easy to say clean house entirely - you still need a core, and if you don't have a difference-maker ceiling guy at a skill position like WR1, FS, or T, then you don't trade them for Day 3 picks, it's got to be at a premium.  If it's not, there's nothing wrong with keeping those guys.    My 2 cents. 

 

PS - I should have qualified my last statement - I think Payton will have the O in great shape next year - if we are able to land a QB he believes in.   Russell Wilson isn't that guy.   I totally get the pessimism if it's infinite years of Russell  Wilson.  Payton is doing a great job maximizing the O with Russell's limitations, but in my future, I'm hoping for a Drake Maye type guy (we're not bad enough to get 1.1, though - although we're pretty bad, crazy to say there are 2-3 teams that are in worse shape.  Crazy, I know).  Russ could be the 2024 starter, but he's not the solution (R1 QB, Russ a transition QB or in the dream world, traded with a lot of the dead money unloaded - but even if we had to use him as the vet bridge, we'd be OK cap-wise, just would be in amazing shape if you can convince someone to take 75% of the remaining $ alone).

 

PSS - FWIW, I get it's got to be a complete rebuild.  I think I was asked if I'd accept the rebuild years post-Russ - and I said as much back then.  Obv I wasn't expecting it to be right away (LOL).  But to me, the tougher part of being a DEN fan was when Elway foolishly wouldn't commit to a rebuild from 2017-19, when it was painfully obvious.   I want us to win and be contenders, but if we can't, I'd much rather we commit to a full rebuild.   So I have no problem with going that way.   But even in a full rebuild, it doesn't mean you get rid of everyone - just the guys who aren't difference-maker and/or those that won't be around to help when we can get back there.  Simmons & Jeudy can still be those guys in 2025, so if we aren't getting a premium return - then stick it out, at least for this year, and see what next offseason brings.  That's all.   As for optimism, I have it because Payton looks THAT good as an O mind, and we're likely embracing the full rebuild now - give me that over the Elway 2017-19 years every day. 

Im not referring to trading them for day 3 picks though.  I still have high hopes for Jeudy if he is made the #1 guy, but if they are not going to get rid of Sutton to clear space for him to be the #1 guy, why not trade him if you can get a 2nd rounder from CAR for him. Sutton probably fetches a 5th, Simmons probably gets you a 2nd/3rd rounder.

I mean Jeudy/Sutton had a combined 7 targets in the entire game yesterday. To your 2 'starting' WRs that with the highest paid WR room in the NFL---7 targets. You cant have that or a change needs to be made. You cant have the highest paid WR room in the league and not even feature any particular WR in your offense. I

Simmons I would love to keep, but hes not the type of player you bring into a full rebuild. Hes a prime candidate you trade if you can get  2nd/3rd rounder for to not only get the cap hit off your books, but selling before his age/injuries start to kick in and he becomes nothing. You dont want to drag a player like that into a full scale rebuild and Im sure he doensnt want to be apart of that either. Sutton is the same way

You gotta get rid of some of these guys while they still have value.

The last question that is uncomfortable to have to answer is do these guys even want to be here going into a rebuild. Bolles/Simmons/Sutton/ect have all said publicly 'all we have done since coming here is lose'. So grant them their request and trade them to a contender for a decent draft pick. Rip the bandaid off. Every single player on this team not named Pat Surtain should be on the trade block IMO No more of this half arsed semi-rebuild stuff with aging veteran QBs. Do it correctly, do it right.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by AkronsWitness

[Broncofan]

6 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Im not referring to trading them for day 3 picks though.  I still have high hopes for Jeudy if he is made the #1 guy, but if they are not going to get rid of Sutton to clear space for him to be the #1 guy, why not trade him if you can get a 2nd rounder from CAR for him. Sutton probably fetches a 5th, Simmons probably gets you a 2nd/3rd rounder.

I mean Jeudy/Sutton had a combined 7 targets in the entire game yesterday. To your 2 'starting' WRs that with the highest paid WR room in the NFL---7 targets. You cant have that or a change needs to be made. You cant have the highest paid WR room in the league and not even feature any particular WR in your offense. I

Simmons I would love to keep, but hes not the type of player you bring into a full rebuild. Hes a prime candidate you trade if you can get  2nd/3rd rounder for to not only get the cap hit off your books, but selling before his age/injuries start to kick in and he becomes nothing. You dont want to drag a player like that into a full scale rebuild and Im sure he doensnt want to be apart of that either. Sutton is the same way

You gotta get rid of some of these guys while they still have value.

The last question that is uncomfortable to have to answer is do these guys even want to be here going into a rebuild. Bolles/Simmons/Sutton/ect have all said publicly 'all we have done since coming here is lose'. So grant them their request and trade them to a contender for a decent draft pick. Rip the bandaid off

 

 

I don't think we disagree on dealing Jeudy if CAR offered a 2nd (because it would be a high 2nd) or Sutton if any team offered anything, or Simmons if we got a 2nd round offer.    But what if that's not the price?  THAT is my problem with the discussion.   Getting a 4th for Jeudy, or even Simmons, isn't helping us.    Get a 5th for Sutton, no-brainer - because Sutton can't separate.    Jeudy can.   Nothing showed that more than yesterday, TBH.   

You can group the 2 together, but it was very obvious who can win vs. good CB's, and who gets washed out.   It's nothing personal against Sutton, but post-ACL he doesn't separate.   Sutton you can deal for almost anything because you save on this year's salary and next year he's not staying for sure.   But with Jeudy/Simmons - what happens if that 2nd round pick scenario you mention isn't there?   Then my answer is simple - you keep them.    There's always next offseason.    And they can help with a new QB, in Jeudy's case it can be a massive asset to have him (plus Mims - and with Mims' rookie contract, you have no cap issues at positional spending either).

I get your point about dealing guys before they lose value entirely - but you can't really justify dealing them if you're not getting those early 2nd (Jeudy), any 2nd (Simmons) offers.  That's all I'm saying.  If you concede we have to get some diff-making pick value, then we're on the same page.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Broncofan

[jolly red giant]

33 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The 2 guys I'd argue you don't give away unless you get a Rd2 pick are Jeudy and Simmons.   I think we need to upgrade the OL, but I wouldn't give away Bolles for a Day 3 pick, either.

3 reasons:

1.  You still have a cap floor every year - you can't just have a 50M team. There is a spending floor.   So spend on guys who actually make a difference.   Jeudy is still the only guy who separates out of the group who plays a full route tree.    Mims obv could be that guy, but there's more than enough room for 2, especially at rookie contracts.   When Mims gets expensive, or when Jeudy REALLY gets pricey, sure, you can make that call.  But giving away Simmons or Jeudy for Day 3 picks would be a MASSIVE mistake, as @BroncoBruin alluded to.

2.  Re: Jeudy, if you have a rookie QB - nothing is better than having decent skill position guys, and a functional OL.   Look at Bryce Young with that CAR motley crew.   Now CAR made a massive mistake with Young over Stroud, but they've compounded it with horrible OL play, and very few to no skill guys.  It definitely accelerates a QB's growth curve to have OL play and skill guys who can maximize on the output.

3.  Whether we like to admit it or not, T's are hard to find.  I am ALL for drafting and developing our next T as well - but the urge to simply cleanse the roster, well it shouldn't come unless we know we have someone ready to take over.   It would be different if we thought we had a successor, but that's still on the horizon (as much as I like Palczewksi, he screams RT more than LT).

At this stage, I know it's easy to want to wipe the slate clean - but the trade market seldom provides the same return.   We don't need more Day 3 picks, as much as we need to stop trading away the Day 1-2 picks we have - fortunately, we're now through that phase.   Now, if you can get R2 picks for Jeudy / Simmons, sure, absolutely make that call.  But if you can't, they're fine to keep.   They're not the problem, and if you find the QB, they're actually part of the solution.    And yes, even though I hated the pick when it happened, even Bolles can be part of the short-term solution (you do want to upgrade if you can, but if not, he's not the issue we have), and certainly trading him away for a Day 3 pick doesn't make much sense - if you can get an early R3 pick, then obviously think it over. 

But guys like Sutton, Jewell, even Alex Singleton - they're at or past their peak, and they're not difference-makers, so yes, you can trade the for Day 3 picks, and let younger guys learn in a painful year.   Definitely trade the Frank Clarks of the world, they aren't going to be here next year.   But it only extends so far.   I'll stand on this hill.   Even though it's easy to say clean house entirely - you still need a core, and if you don't have a difference-maker ceiling guy at a skill position like WR1, FS, or T, then you don't trade them for Day 3 picks, it's got to be at a premium.  If it's not, there's nothing wrong with keeping those guys.    My 2 cents. 

 

PS - I should have qualified my last statement - I think Payton will have the O in great shape next year - if we are able to land a QB he believes in.   Russell Wilson isn't that guy.   I totally get the pessimism if it's infinite years of Russell  Wilson.  Payton is doing a great job maximizing the O with Russell's limitations, but in my future, I'm hoping for a Drake Maye type guy (we're not bad enough to get 1.1, though - although we're pretty bad, crazy to say there are 2-3 teams that are in worse shape.  Crazy, I know).  Russ could be the 2024 starter, but he's not the solution (R1 QB, Russ a transition QB or in the dream world, traded with a lot of the dead money unloaded - but even if we had to use him as the vet bridge, we'd be OK cap-wise, just would be in amazing shape if you can convince someone to take 75% of the remaining $ alone).

 

PSS - FWIW, I get it's got to be a complete rebuild.  I think I was asked if I'd accept the rebuild years post-Russ - and I said as much back then.  Obv I wasn't expecting it to be right away (LOL).  But to me, the tougher part of being a DEN fan was when Elway foolishly wouldn't commit to a rebuild from 2017-19, when it was painfully obvious.   I want us to win and be contenders, but if we can't, I'd much rather we commit to a full rebuild.   So I have no problem with going that way.   But even in a full rebuild, it doesn't mean you get rid of everyone - just the guys who aren't difference-maker and/or those that won't be around to help when we can get back there.  Simmons & Jeudy can still be those guys in 2025, so if we aren't getting a premium return - then stick it out, at least for this year, and see what next offseason brings.  That's all.   As for optimism, I have it because Payton looks THAT good as an O mind, and we're likely embracing the full rebuild now - give me that over the Elway 2017-19 years every day. 

There is a lot of sense here. We will need a QB and are likely to be there or thereabouts to get one - and we should go and get one (this is where the extra picks will come into play).

When you have a QB, ideally, he can sit behind a vet for a year - that could be Wilson, but if we could unload him, I would be happy to roll with Stidham. Then you need to protect your QB - and that requires an OL and a running game to lean on. 

On defence we have players on the back-end - but you don't win games unless you can win in the trenches - and that is what has been sorely limited in recent times.

Do it right and after a tough couple of years of growing you could have 15 good years of winning football - if you get the foundations rights.

[broncofan48]

Just keep Wilson since the dead cap is killer for a few years anyways, then the cap floor isn’t an issue.  Get what you can out of everyone else.  It’s fire sale season 

[jolly red giant]

2 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I don't think we disagree on dealing Jeudy if CAR offered a 2nd (because it would be a high 2nd) or Sutton if any team offered anything, or Simmons if we got a 2nd round offer.    But what if that's not the price?  THAT is my problem with the discussion.   Getting a 4th for Jeudy, or even Simmons, isn't helping us.    Get a 5th for Sutton, no-brainer - because Sutton can't separate.    Jeudy can.   Nothing showed that more than yesterday, TBH.   

You can group the 2 together, but it was very obvious who can win vs. good CB's, and who gets washed out.   It's nothing personal against Sutton, but post-ACL he doesn't separate.   Sutton you can deal for almost anything because you save on this year's salary and next year he's not staying for sure.   But with Jeudy/Simmons - what happens if that 2nd round pick scenario you mention isn't there?   Then my answer is simple - you keep them.    There's always next offseason.   

I get your point about dealing guys before they lose value entirely - but you can't really justify dealing them if you're not getting those early 2nd (Jeudy), any 2nd (Simmons) offers.  That's all I'm saying.  If you concede we have to get some diff-making pick value, then we're on the same page.

There is no point in dealing your best players unless you get a premium pick (a 2 in the case of Jeudy or Simmons). I also wouldn't be adverse to trade Surtain if we could get 2 firsts + for him. If you can't get the value then you keep the player (unless there is something else that warrants you getting rid). Every single player on the roster should have a price and should be moved if that price is offered.

[Broncofan]

3 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

There is no point in dealing your best players unless you get a premium pick (a 2 in the case of Jeudy or Simmons). I also wouldn't be adverse to trade Surtain if we could get 2 firsts + for him. If you can't get the value then you keep the player (unless there is something else that warrants you getting rid). Every single player on the roster should have a price and should be moved if that price is offered.

That's fair, just keep in mind those trades are incredibly rare.   MIA spending a 1st on Bradley Chubb was a godsend, even if it was spent on Payton instead.   But there have been 2 trades involving 1st round picks - Jalen Ramsey for 2 1sts and a 3rd IIRC at his absolute peak (like PS2) and Chubb's trade.   The wild part - LAR GM Les Snead was willing to trade TWO 1sts for Brian Burns last year - but CAR turned him down - then are hesitant to extend Burns this offseason, but didn't want to include him in the CHI trade and traded DJ Moore instead - but now are in the market for a #1 WR (LOL what a gong show).

All of which to say - as long as we all agree it has to be at a premium - sure, those are deals to be made.   But the reverse applies - if we can't get a premium pick, there is nothing wrong with keeping Simmons or Jeudy.    Guys like Sutton, Jewell, Singleton  - different story, they have no future in 2025+ with us.  Guys on 1-year deals who are taking time away from younger guys, we can almost give them away for salary relief (Frank Clark, Kareem Jackson), if there are any takers.

[Dbrog24]

I know we are talking about fire sales but I think the more important question is does Sean even want this? I don't doubt there are players on this roster he would like to get rid of, but I seem to recall him talking in this offseason about him "loving to spend money" and that the Saints never really drafted that well. I guess the hope would be this is where George can balance him out by actually getting good prospects in the door. I guess I just worry if Sean is truly in control over everything, does he just flip the picks we get from our current guys, into trades with other teams for their guys? Then sign more high priced free agents to shore up gaps. I would say that's an absolute waste of even trading our players. 

[Broncofan]

29 minutes ago, Dbrog24 said:

I know we are talking about fire sales but I think the more important question is does Sean even want this? I don't doubt there are players on this roster he would like to get rid of, but I seem to recall him talking in this offseason about him "loving to spend money" and that the Saints never really drafted that well. I guess the hope would be this is where George can balance him out by actually getting good prospects in the door. I guess I just worry if Sean is truly in control over everything, does he just flip the picks we get from our current guys, into trades with other teams for their guys? Then sign more high priced free agents to shore up gaps. I would say that's an absolute waste of even trading our players. 

The Saints got out of cap hell (or delayed the butchers bill coming due) by having great drafts.   The 2017 draft gave them the window to extend their contention period after his SB win was a distant memory.  
 

They traded up to R1 for non-QB which went poorly (Olave looks good; Davenport & Penning oops).   So they wasn’t great.    But their Day 2-3 & UDFA record was stellar.     It had to be given their cap situation only allowed 1-2 big signings a year at most for several years running.  

Edited October 9, 2023 by Broncofan

[Dbrog24]

40 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The Saints got out of cap hell (or delayed the butchers bill coming due) by having great drafts.   The 2017 draft gave them the window to extend their contention period after his SB win was a distant memory.  
 

They traded up to R1 for non-QB which went poorly (Olave looks good; Davenport & Penning oops).   So they wasn’t great.    But their Day 2-3 & UDFA record was stellar.     It had to be given their cap situation only allowed 1-2 big signings a year at most for several years running.  

That gives me some hope. I think I've just been conditioned to think, "what's the next bad thing that's going to happen?" with our team. Like...scenarios where we get a top2 or 3 pick, get some other picks from trading our guys, but still don't have a future we can be excited about.

[AkronsWitness]

37 minutes ago, Dbrog24 said:

That gives me some hope. I think I've just been conditioned to think, "what's the next bad thing that's going to happen?" with our team. Like...scenarios where we get a top2 or 3 pick, get some other picks from trading our guys, but still don't have a future we can be excited about.

You will have a future to be excited about the moment you spend a top 5 draft pick on a QB. The issue right now is the entire roster is in transition. Half win now veterans and half young players looking to make a name for themselves--both of which are riding a sinking ship. The only question is when does the white flag get waved.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by AkronsWitness

[Dbrog24]

22 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

You will have a future to be excited about the moment you spend a top 5 draft pick on a QB. The issue right now is the entire roster is in transition. Half win now veterans and half young players looking to make a name for themselves--both of which are riding a sinking ship. The only question is when does the white flag get waved.

 

That is I think what I'm actually more hopeful for, especially after seeing the huge shift with Sanders and the Buffs. I'd like to see most of this team completely gone assuming it makes sense with salaries or decent picks in trades. Houston has really blown up almost their entire organization like this and Washington might be doing the same things now. I know both fanbases are excited about potential from that...that's what I'm looking for, QB or not. It's kinda weird that our defense is so putrid right now and offensive line not great, that I don't actually think it's a great time to draft a QB unless we are committed to him sitting for a year so we can tank again for help on the line.