Week 5 GDT: Broncos vs. NY Jets

[JMG5]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

The Saints got out of cap hell (or delayed the butchers bill coming due) by having great drafts.   The 2017 draft gave them the window to extend their contention period after his SB win was a distant memory.  
 

They traded up to R1 for non-QB which went poorly (Olave looks good; Davenport & Penning oops).   So they wasn’t great.    But their Day 2-3 & UDFA record was stellar.     It had to be given their cap situation only allowed 1-2 big signings a year at most for several years running.  

The Saints drafted inconsistently from 2007-2016 and only started to have successful drafts after revamping our scouting department and bringing in Jeff Ireland to be the head of that scouting department. Outside of 2006 (which set us up for nearly a decade) and 2017 (which saved the team from years of mismanaging draft capital and poor free agent signings) our hit rate was rather low. Sean had free reign to be as aggressive as he wanted pursuing free agents or prospects he liked. It got us into a lot of trouble. We would still do this occasionally after 2017 (like with Davenport), but we no longer traded draft capital to reach for a player in the draft only for them to become a bust.

As for Olave, Davenport and Penning. Olave has been a stud. Davenport is a really good player, although not worth two 1sts, but is made of glass. Penning started the season off looking like a guy who never got any reps, which he is, but has been pretty good since then. He might be great or he might just be average. Jury is still out on him. Overall, most Saints fans are pleased with the Olave/Penning draft assuming Penning continues his current level of play or continues to improve.

More on our poor drafting and bad free agency signings: It got so bad that at one point that we actually had to field UDFAs at valuable positions on defense because we couldn't get anyone better. This led to historically bad defenses and many wasted years of Drew's prime. 

Sean's ego is a big part of why he's been a successful coach. He believes in himself and knows what he wants out of his players. His ego also gets the best of him sometimes. He's a bit of prick and his coaching style can rub some players the wrong way. His ego makes him arrogant at times when playcalling and roster building. In New Orleans, his first year he came in and won games, so his coaching style was accepted by players. I don't know if his style has sustainability if the results aren't there.

Edited October 10, 2023 by JMG5

[Broncofan]

2 hours ago, JMG5 said:

The Saints drafted inconsistently from 2007-2016 and only started to have successful drafts after revamping our scouting department and bringing in Jeff Ireland to be the head of that scouting department. Outside of 2006 (which set us up for nearly a decade) and 2017 (which saved the team from years of mismanaging draft capital and poor free agent signings) our hit rate was rather low. Sean had free reign to be as aggressive as he wanted pursuing free agents or prospects he liked. It got us into a lot of trouble. We would still do this occasionally after 2017 (like with Davenport), but we no longer traded draft capital to reach for a player in the draft only for them to become a bust.

As for Olave, Davenport and Penning. Olave has been a stud. Davenport is a really good player, although not worth two 1sts, but is made of glass. Penning started the season off looking like a guy who never got any reps, which he is, but has been pretty good since then. He might be great or he might just be average. Jury is still out on him. Overall, most Saints fans are pleased with the Olave/Penning draft assuming Penning continues his current level of play or continues to improve.

More on our poor drafting and bad free agency signings: It got so bad that at one point that we actually had to field UDFAs at valuable positions on defense because we couldn't get anyone better. This led to historically bad defenses and many wasted years of Drew's prime. 

Sean's ego is a big part of why he's been a successful coach. He believes in himself and knows what he wants out of his players. His ego also gets the best of him sometimes. He's a bit of prick and his coaching style can rub some players the wrong way. His ego makes him arrogant at times when playcalling and roster building. In New Orleans, his first year he came in and won games, so his coaching style was accepted by players. I don't know if his style has sustainability if the results aren't there.

Ireland absolutely deserves the credit and not Payton, but IMO you're being harsh on your own team's last 5 years, witness:

-Your OL has pretty much been all hits, even if Penning is just average, Ramczyk was stellar late R1, McCoy & Ruiz have been fixtures.   Armstead was injury-prone, but very good when he played.  I wish we had that kind of OL hit rate.

-You've been able to fill your roster with UDFA's very nicely - Juwan Johnson & Rasheed Shaheed (he could really be an impact guy in the right scheme).   I wish we had a Juwan Johnson on our roster.   And you didn't miss with Olave (even if the other 2 were misses on the trade-up value, Olave looks worth it).    Now that Alvin Kamara is getting really expensive, getting a R3 rookie like Kendre Miller is the perfect succession plan. 

-On the D front, Pete Werner, Paulson Adebo & Alontae Taylor have really solidified your D - and again, these are day 2 picks.    And that's to go with R1 picks Lattimore (from that stellar 2017 class) that didn't miss - they make such a difference. 

It's true that if the 2017 draft didn't happen, the butcher's bill would have come due a long time before it did.   But when you see most hit rates, the Saints actually do very well.   And that's before you get to the value UDFA finds (Demario Davis was an absolute steal obv).   It makes it a lot easier to compete when your draft can fill in 3+ quality starters in year 2-3 like your GM has been able to do.   Filling more than 1-2 holes with FA each year is a losing prop, and your team fortunately doesn't have to go there most years (necessary with the cap constraints, but Ireland makes it work).   I get that NO was very much in perpetual cap hell because they never embraced the full rebuild - but here, we kind of don't have a choice.   I'm quite confident Payton sees that - and not by any generous trait - but more that he only can succeed here in DEN with a different QB than Russell Wilson. 

Now, if your point is that Payton won't have the patience to go draft, that may be case - but really, he doesn't have a choice until we're out from under Russ' contract.  Remember that Payton wanted to take Mahomes in 2017 at 1.11 as Brees' time was clearly coming to an end - so I think his priority this offseason will be to ID the QB he wants for his future.    If we end up with a top 5 pick, I suspect that will be sorted out in short order.    The big diff being that NO was perpetually in the playoffs during those years.   We aren't going to be, which for 1 offseason, should make it easy to Payton and Paton/rest of FO to be aligned.   After 2024, though, all bets are off.   

 

[JMG5]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Ireland absolutely deserves the credit and not Payton, but IMO you're being harsh on your own team's last 5 years, witness:

I did not mean for the message to come off this way. I was trying to be critical of the era in which Payton had an excess of power when it came to choosing prospects (2007-2016) and praise Ireland for our turnaround. Every good player on our team at the moment outside of Cameron Jordan was acquired in 2016 or later. We have drafted pretty well since Ireland has come on board. An occasional miss, but every team has those. Sorry for not clarifying that well enough. 

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Now, if your point is that Payton won't have the patience to go draft, that may be case - but really, he doesn't have a choice until we're out from under Russ' contract.  Remember that Payton wanted to take Mahomes in 2017 at 1.11 as Brees' time was clearly coming to an end - so I think his priority this offseason will be to ID the QB he wants for his future.    If we end up with a top 5 pick, I suspect that will be sorted out in short order.    The big diff being that NO was perpetually in the playoffs during those years.   We aren't going to be, which for 1 offseason, should make it easy to Payton and Paton/rest of FO to be aligned.   After 2024, though, all bets are off.   

 

My point was that Sean is driven by ego and for many years here it got him into trouble in many areas. He believes his opinion is the best opinion and he's aggressive to prove himself right. Sometimes he is right, but when he's wrong it takes a while to rectify those mistakes. Blunders in areas like drafting, free agency, coaching staff decisions, playcalling, and player relationships can hurt a team for multiple years. It happened to us even with a HoF QB under center and it took phenomenal drafting from 2017 onward to put us back on the right path.

If you guys can keep a structure in place to keep him in check a bit then he could do a great job. If he's allowed to make the decisions and go unchecked then his ego and impatience might lead to more poor decisions like he had with us. 

[Broncofan]

5 hours ago, JMG5 said:

I did not mean for the message to come off this way. I was trying to be critical of the era in which Payton had an excess of power when it came to choosing prospects (2007-2016) and praise Ireland for our turnaround. Every good player on our team at the moment outside of Cameron Jordan was acquired in 2016 or later. We have drafted pretty well since Ireland has come on board. An occasional miss, but every team has those. Sorry for not clarifying that well enough. 

My point was that Sean is driven by ego and for many years here it got him into trouble in many areas. He believes his opinion is the best opinion and he's aggressive to prove himself right. Sometimes he is right, but when he's wrong it takes a while to rectify those mistakes. Blunders in areas like drafting, free agency, coaching staff decisions, playcalling, and player relationships can hurt a team for multiple years. It happened to us even with a HoF QB under center and it took phenomenal drafting from 2017 onward to put us back on the right path.

If you guys can keep a structure in place to keep him in check a bit then he could do a great job. If he's allowed to make the decisions and go unchecked then his ego and impatience might lead to more poor decisions like he had with us. 

Understood on the 1st part.

Re: Payton's ego, his weakness with getting cute with calling trick plays, or falling in love with certain guys (Taysom Hill as a QB or TE was nuts, sure let him be a power runner if need be; his ongoing affection for Adam Trautman in the pass game <our move TE can't block>, etc.), that speaks to this flaw.    It's also why ppl question how long he's willing to stick it out here in a rebuild, but IMO if he wasn't sold on Russell Wilson (and there's a reason why he apparently wanted LAC or Dallas first, but neither was available), then it's pretty clear he has an idea of what he'd like to do next QB-wise, and that entails a rebuild.   How much control he gets over draft / personnel, that's the 64K Q - we'll see there.   Paton's made clear mistakes with Russell trade & Hackett hiring, plus whiffed on FA signings (the former 2 a much bigger problem than the latter), but draft evals are where he excels.   Ideally we have a Ireland-Payton collaboration there.   

[Broncofan]

18 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

You will have a future to be excited about the moment you spend a top 5 draft pick on a QB. The issue right now is the entire roster is in transition. Half win now veterans and half young players looking to make a name for themselves--both of which are riding a sinking ship. The only question is when does the white flag get waved.

 

 

17 hours ago, Dbrog24 said:

That is I think what I'm actually more hopeful for, especially after seeing the huge shift with Sanders and the Buffs. I'd like to see most of this team completely gone assuming it makes sense with salaries or decent picks in trades. Houston has really blown up almost their entire organization like this and Washington might be doing the same things now. I know both fanbases are excited about potential from that...that's what I'm looking for, QB or not. It's kinda weird that our defense is so putrid right now and offensive line not great, that Idon't actually think it's a great time to draft a QB unless we are committed to him sitting for a year so we can tank again for help on the line.

To me, this is the exact type of thinking that cursed our QB choices post-Peyton.   We were committed to Case Keenum (!!!), so we passed on the 2018 QB class - then drafted out of a weaker 2019 class and landed Drew Lock.   We then thought Drew Lock might be the answer so we didn't try to ID QB for a couple of years.   Now we had Russ, and paid him handsomely, but it hasn't worked out.   At least with Russ there was a track record of top play, that it was reasonable to hope this.   But the key point - sometimes the opportunity comes to draft QB, and we should take it when we are in clear rebuild mode.    2018 was the only time we had a shot at QB's that made sense, and then 2021 (I chose to trade back that year in the GM game, FTR).  

If we're in position to draft an elite QB that you believe in, and you don't have the elite or even good to great QB already, you do it.  I'm not saying you force a pick out of need - but 2024 has the benefit of 3 guys, if not 4, that are clearly drawing top interest.  2 of them appear to be no-brainer top 5 picks - Williams (duh) and Maye.    The rookie contract benefits are massive, and obviously, if the guy is skilled enough, you win so much.   Sean Payton probably has a very good idea of who he wants.  I'd imagine Williams & Drake Maye fit the bill to a T.    Those would be no-brainer picks, but again I don't think we're drafting at 1.1 TBH.   Still, getting a Maye would be a great move.  I don't think how good or bad our team is should interfere with that pick.  Now, if you are squinting hard to say "I think he's a 1st-rd pick" - OK, I get that debate.  But if you're convinced, fire away without hesitation.    

Waiting until the rest of the team is better makes sense in theory - but by then, you're usually good enough that you're not in position to draft said players.     Having said that, if we don't get into position for Wiliams or Maye, then the T's like Fashanu make sense.   Sadly I don't think there's a  2022 Jalen Carter or 2023 Jalen Carter in this draft class.   But we shouldn't pass on an elite QBOTF if he's there.   This year is easier IMO because I think there are 2 that fit without even thinking hard on it, so if we're in position for 1 of them, it's an easy call.  But we have to get there first, so....

Edited October 10, 2023 by Broncofan

[AkronsWitness]

38 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

 

To me, this is the exact type of thinking that cursed our QB choices post-Peyton.   We were committed to Case Keenum (!!!), so we passed on the 2018 QB class - then drafted out of a weaker 2019 class and landed Drew Lock.   We then thought Drew Lock might be the answer so we didn't try to ID QB for a couple of years.   Now we had Russ, and paid him handsomely, but it hasn't worked out.   At least with Russ there was a track record of top play, that it was reasonable to hope this.   But the key point - sometimes the opportunity comes to draft QB, and we should take it when we are in clear rebuild mode.    2018 was the only time we had a shot at QB's that made sense, and then 2021 (I chose to trade back that year in the GM game, FTR).  

If we're in position to draft an elite QB that you believe in, and you don't have the elite or even good to great QB already, you do it.  I'm not saying you force a pick out of need - but 2024 has the benefit of 3 guys, if not 4, that are clearly drawing top interest.   The rookie contract benefits are massive, and obviously, if the guy is skilled enough, you win so much.   Sean Payton probably has a very good idea of who he wants.  I'd imagine Williams & Drake Maye fit the bill to a T.    Those would be no-brainer picks, but again I don't think we're drafting at 1.1 TBH.   Still, getting a Maye would be a great move.  I don't think how good or bad our team is should interfere with that pick.  Now, if you are squinting hard to say "I think he's a 1st-rd pick" - OK, I get that debate.  But if you're convinced, fire away without hesitation.    

Waiting until the rest of the team is better makes sense in theory - but by then, you're usually good enough that you're not in position to draft said players.     Having said that, if we don't get into position for Wiliams or Maye, then the T's like Fashanu make sense.   Sadly I don't think there's a  2022 Jalen Carter or 2023 Jalen Carter in this draft class.   But we shouldn't pass on an elite QBOTF if he's there.   This year is easier IMO because I think there are 2 that fit without even thinking hard on it, so if we're in position for 1 of them, it's an easy call.  But we have to get there first, so....

The problem is much like the Steelers--the Broncos have always been too proud of a franchise to go into a formal, actual rebuild. They would rather patch together a roster that can hopefully win 7-9 games and not be an embarrassment than admit when its time. Problem is they are now both an embarrassment AND dont have a roster that is in a full scale rebuild that you can blame on young players being young.

This is also when you start getting all of your Kyle Ortons, Case Keenums, washed Russ Wilsons, Joe Flaccos, Teddy Bridgwaters and you can even throw Jake Plummer in there even though he was actually good. aka. Bandaid veterans.

I know Ive posted this on here before but its worth bringing up again--the Broncos havent spent a top 10 pick on a potential QBOTF since 1983. No matter what your evaluation of QBs are and belief you can still get 'your guy' in the late first or early second round--the cream of the crop is at the top. Thats where your Justin Herberts, Joe Burrows, Josh Allens, Trevor Lawrences and CJ Strouds are. Guys with their skillset and elite arm talent arnt sitting there at the 24th pick in the draft and I am frankly done watching the Broncos try their hardest to work magic with a guy who doesnt have it all.

I just want  to see Denver draft one of the top 1-2 guys at QB in the draft and have a plan to build around him. This also is why I was (and still am) furious we didnt take Justin Fields at #9 when he was staring us in the face. It sometimes feels like this team does everything in its power to not fully commit and instead thinks they are good enough to turn a unpolished guy with 'traits' into your franchise QB aka Tebow/Cutler/Lynch.

You can say the lines need to be better before dropping a rookie QB in there, but I dont think the problem is OL talent as much as it is scheme and continuity. Your never going to have a perfect situation to give to a rookie QB. Thats why your drafting that high in the first place, because your team isnt good. Did having a bad OL stop the Bengals/Chargers/Jaguars/Texans from drafting Burrow/Herbert/Lawrence/Stroud? No it did not. You have to get your guy and take your shot when its there no matter what the state of the rest of the roster is in. You get your guy at QB and figure the rest out later.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by AkronsWitness

[lomaxgrUK]

 

 

Always worth a watch. WRs, Russ and Payton all get slammed in that video. Brutal (but interesting) watch

[AKRNA]

1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

 

To me, this is the exact type of thinking that cursed our QB choices post-Peyton.   We were committed to Case Keenum (!!!), so we passed on the 2018 QB class - then drafted out of a weaker 2019 class and landed Drew Lock.   We then thought Drew Lock might be the answer so we didn't try to ID QB for a couple of years.   Now we had Russ, and paid him handsomely, but it hasn't worked out.   At least with Russ there was a track record of top play, that it was reasonable to hope this.   But the key point - sometimes the opportunity comes to draft QB, and we should take it when we are in clear rebuild mode.    2018 was the only time we had a shot at QB's that made sense, and then 2021 (I chose to trade back that year in the GM game, FTR).  

If we're in position to draft an elite QB that you believe in, and you don't have the elite or even good to great QB already, you do it.  I'm not saying you force a pick out of need - but 2024 has the benefit of 3 guys, if not 4, that are clearly drawing top interest.   The rookie contract benefits are massive, and obviously, if the guy is skilled enough, you win so much.   Sean Payton probably has a very good idea of who he wants.  I'd imagine Williams & Drake Maye fit the bill to a T.    Those would be no-brainer picks, but again I don't think we're drafting at 1.1 TBH.   Still, getting a Maye would be a great move.  I don't think how good or bad our team is should interfere with that pick.  Now, if you are squinting hard to say "I think he's a 1st-rd pick" - OK, I get that debate.  But if you're convinced, fire away without hesitation.    

Waiting until the rest of the team is better makes sense in theory - but by then, you're usually good enough that you're not in position to draft said players.     Having said that, if we don't get into position for Wiliams or Maye, then the T's like Fashanu make sense.   Sadly I don't think there's a  2022 Jalen Carter or 2023 Jalen Carter in this draft class.   But we shouldn't pass on an elite QBOTF if he's there.   This year is easier IMO because I think there are 2 that fit without even thinking hard on it, so if we're in position for 1 of them, it's an easy call.  But we have to get there first, so....

So, how often has drafting a top QB on an absolutely horrible team worked out well?

I can point to dozens of instances where it hasn't. 

[Broncofan]

37 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

The problem is much like the Steelers--the Broncos have always been too proud of a franchise to go into a formal, actual rebuild. They would rather patch together a roster that can hopefully win 7-9 games and not be an embarrassment than admit when its time. Problem is they are now both an embarrassment AND dont have a roster that is in a full scale rebuild that you can blame on young players being young.

This is also when you start getting all of your Kyle Ortons, Case Keenums, washed Russ Wilsons, Joe Flaccos, Teddy Bridgwaters and you can even throw Jake Plummer in there even though he was actually good. aka. Bandaid veterans.

I know Ive posted this on here before but its worth bringing up again--the Broncos havent spent a top 10 pick on a potential QBOTF since 1983. No matter what your evaluation of QBs are and belief you can still get 'your guy' in the late first or early second round--the cream of the crop is at the top. Thats where your Justin Herberts, Joe Burrows, Josh Allens, Trevor Lawrences and CJ Strouds are. Guys with their skillset and elite arm talent arnt sitting there at the 24th pick in the draft and I am frankly done watching the Broncos try their hardest to work magic with a guy who doesnt have it all.

I just want  to see Denver draft one of the top 1-2 guys at QB in the draft and have a plan to build around him. This also is why I was (and still am) furious we didnt take Justin Fields at #9 when he was staring us in the face. It sometimes feels like this team does everything in its power to not fully commit and instead thinks they are good enough to turn a unpolished guy with 'traits' into your franchise QB aka Tebow/Cutler/Lynch.

You can say the lines need to be better before dropping a rookie QB in there, but I dont think the problem is OL talent as much as it is scheme and continuity. Your never going to have a perfect situation to give to a rookie QB. Thats why your drafting that high in the first place, because your team isnt good. Did having a bad OL stop the Bengals/Chargers/Jaguars/Texans from drafting Burrow/Herbert/Lawrence/Stroud? No it did not. You have to get your guy and take your shot when its there no matter what the state of the rest of the roster is in. You get your guy at QB and figure the rest out later.

 

 

For better or worse Justin Fields was never going to be a Bronco with Elway just ceding control to Paton & Fangio getting his call on the 2021 season.      The jury's still out on Fields, even with his recent uptick on play.     If we had turned over the leaf a year earlier, then maybe it goes a different way.   The PS2 pick obviously was still a very good one - and if Fields fails to progress further, then PS2 was still very much the right call.  But you're right on the process - just that Fields might not be that elite guy.   

IMO I don't think you can glean too much from Burrow / Lawrence - they were consensus 1.1 picks.   Pretty much any team who's not set at QB would go there.    I think it's Herbert & Stroud & to extend a little further, even Tua that drive home the point you're making - if you are convinced the QB is your guy, then you take him.   The flip side is reaching for a non-elite guy in Rd1 (Danny Jones, Mac Jones, Kenny Pickett) is equally bad, because then you're in limbo for 3+ years while you see if it pans out.     I'm in your corner, with the caveat that you are convinced the player is an elite ceiling QB.    

The other point I'd reiterate - we're almost never in the "right" year to be looking at QB in the past.  We draft Brock Osweiler, so in 2016 & 2017, we pass up on the draft because we want to see what Brock Osweiler can do.    In 2018, instead of the draft, we go with Case Keenum as the FA trigger man (and worse, take him over Kirk Cousins, a hill I was standing on back then and obv still now) - so we passed on Josh Allen (TBF, who knows if Elway would have gone there with no Keenum).     Worse, we didn't even hit the right non-QB in Chubb over Quentin Nelson.  By 2019, we prioritize QB when it's nowhere near as good as 2017 or 2018 was, and go with Drew Lock.      In 2020, we don't even consider QB with Lock in the fold - but if we had, we'd have had a shot at Tua or Herbert in the top 6; if we wanted to move up, the opp was there.   But we're always looking for QB in the wrong years - Brock Osweiler in 2016, instead of 2017 with Watson/Mahomes (PR notwithstanding, obv with Watson) or 2018's class; then in 2019 we go Lock  in a far, far worse QB class than 2017, 2018 or 2020.    

This is the ONE year where the QB class has 2 no-doubt top-of-draft QB's, and maybe there might be 1-2 more (but I'd feel a lot better if we were in on Maye - Williams is the unicorn I refuse to believe in until we're staring 1.1 in the face in December).    If we don't prioritize QB this year, I don't see 2025 as a great QB year.   I do hope we pick high enough we can get to that top-shelf guy.   Give Payton that guy, and I'm optimistic on our 2025+ outlook.

[Broncofan]

12 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

So, how often has drafting a top QB on an absolutely horrible team worked out well?

I can point to dozens of instances where it hasn't. 

And the instances where it does work, it's franchise-changing.   It works both ways.   Reaching for the not-great QB talent because you need it is the mistake there.    To be clear, we may not be in range for one of those elite talents - but if we have that opp,  IMO we shouldn't hesitate. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Broncofan

[AkronsWitness]

7 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

For better or worse Justin Fields was never going to be a Bronco with Elway just ceding control to Paton & Fangio getting his call on the 2021 season.      The jury's still out on Fields, even with his recent uptick on play.     If we had turned over the leaf a year earlier, then maybe it goes a different way.   The PS2 pick obviously was still a very good one - and if Fields fails to progress further, then PS2 was still very much the right call.  But you're right on the process - just that Fields might not be that elite guy.   

IMO I don't think you can glean too much from Burrow / Lawrence - they were consensus 1.1 picks.   Pretty much any team who's not set at QB would go there.    I think it's Herbert & Stroud & to extend a little further, even Tua that drive home the point you're making - if you are convinced the QB is your guy, then you take him.   The flip side is reaching for a non-elite guy in Rd1 (Danny Jones, Mac Jones, Kenny Pickett) is equally bad, because then you're in limbo for 3+ years while you see if it pans out.     I'm in your corner, with the caveat that you are convinced the player is an elite ceiling QB.    

The other point I'd reiterate - we're almost never in the "right" year to be looking at QB in the past.  We draft Brock Osweiler, so in 2016 & 2017, we pass up on the draft because we want to see what Brock Osweiler can do.    In 2018, instead of the draft, we go with Case Keenum as the FA trigger man (and worse, take him over Kirk Cousins, a hill I was standing on back then and obv still now) - so we passed on Josh Allen (TBF, who knows if Elway would have gone there with no Keenum).     Worse, we didn't even hit the right non-QB in Chubb over Quentin Nelson.  By 2019, we prioritize QB when it's nowhere near as good as 2017 or 2018 was, and go with Drew Lock.      In 2020, we don't even consider QB with Lock in the fold - but if we had, we'd have had a shot at Tua or Herbert in the top 6; if we wanted to move up, the opp was there.   But we're always looking for QB in the wrong years - Brock Osweiler in 2016, instead of 2017 with Watson/Mahomes (PR notwithstanding, obv with Watson) or 2018's class; then in 2019 we go Lock  in a far, far worse QB class than 2017, 2018 or 2020.    

This is the ONE year where the QB class has 2 no-doubt top-of-draft QB's, and maybe there might be 1-2 more (but I'd feel a lot better if we were in on Maye - Williams is the unicorn I refuse to believe in until we're staring 1.1 in the face in December).    If we don't prioritize QB this year, I don't see 2025 as a great QB year.   I do hope we pick high enough we can get to that top-shelf guy.   Give Payton that guy, and I'm optimistic on our 2025+ outlook.

Yeah this has the potential to be a heavy QB year which is great for teams that need it. Williams/Maye/Penix/Ewers all look to the part to varying degrees (if they all come out) but the good news is that even if the Broncos dont get #1 or #2, they could still get a guy who would most likely be at the top of the draft board in any other draft like Ewers/Penix.

[Cutler06]

9 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Yeah this has the potential to be a heavy QB year which is great for teams that need it. Williams/Maye/Penix/Ewers all look to the part to varying degrees (if they all come out) but the good news is that even if the Broncos dont get #1 or #2, they could still get a guy who would most likely be at the top of the draft board in any other draft like Ewers/Penix.

Even so, if we don’t get Williams or Mayes, sitting guys like Penix, Nix or Ewers a year behind Wilson would allow them to get up to speed with the game while helping reducing Russ’s cap number and probably getting some higher picks next year.

 

Then if we don’t select a QB high, we just can build up the trenches and other areas of need and try the following year for ?? Not like this’ll be a 1-year turnaround anyway

[AKRNA]

2 minutes ago, Cutler06 said:

Even so, if we don’t get Williams or Mayes, sitting guys like Penix, Nix or Ewers a year behind Wilson would allow them to get up to speed with the game while helping reducing Russ’s cap number and probably getting some higher picks next year.

 

Then if we don’t select a QB high, we just can build up the trenches and other areas of need and try the following year for ?? Not like this’ll be a 1-year turnaround anyway

And that's the key, right there. Drafting the best QB in college will not turn this franchise around. This will take some time. 

[MontanaBronco]

Kinda random, but with how Sutton was talking up modeling his game after Michael Thomas this offseason, have we seen him catch a slant? 

[AKRNA]

7 hours ago, Broncofan said:

And the instances where it does work, it's franchise-changing.   It works both ways.   Reaching for the not-great QB talent because you need it is the mistake there.    To be clear, we may not be in range for one of those elite talents - but if we have that opp,  IMO we shouldn't hesitate. 

IMO there have only been 4 QB's that you'd take with your 1st pick regardless of how terrible your team was, guys that were basically "can't miss". Elway, Manning, Luck and Lawrence. Do you really think this years class has someone of that caliber?