Is Mahomes the only QB in his prime right now who is an all time great?

[Soko]

3 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

My question still havent been answered? Which is odd bc all the greatness talk about Mahomes yet again why hasnt he elevated his receivers? Thats a big quality of a great QB is to elevate his receivers. Brees did it for Marques Colston. I can list alot of great QBs and how they elevated receivers. Again Mahomes have Toney, Moore, and Rice. Brought back Hardman. Mahomes need to elevate one if not two of them so people wont be saying "the Chiefs need a receiver badly". Teams like the Giants and Pats need receivers badly bc QBs like Mac and Daniel Jones cant elevate receivers. They need already proven great receivers to make them look better. So I dont hear enough about why Mahomes dont elevate his receivers? Not saying it wont be nice to get him a great receiver but the purpose of letting Hill go was to find a Moore and that Mahomes will make him look great to where it would be a near seemless transition from Hill to Moore. That hasnt been the case. 

Yeah, I was more pointing out the ridiculous but predictable Rams/Stafford toss-in in that comparison you made, lol. 

Mahomes won an MVP last year with virtually this same group. He’s great. 

You pointing out Welker and Edelman but forgetting N’Keal Harry or Aaron Dobson or the rest of the largely awful group of receivers that never amounted anything, shows where your head’s at. Brady and Peyton have played with more scrubs that bounced out of the league than they have stars. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

11 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Moon was kept out of the NFL because he was a black QB. His rookie year was age 28, and his prime was age 34-5. 

If his rookie year was age ~22 his career would have had a much different arc. 

Putting him in the HOF was a mea culpa. He was a HOF worthy talent who was sadly mistreated. 

I'm not debating that. I'm saying he never made a conference championship game. That's just the fact. 

And yikes, I couldn't imagine Warren having to hear that half the reason he's in the HOF was partly due to de facto affirmative action by the NFL, instead of him getting to where he got by his own merit despite the circumstances. I'm kinfolk, and wouldn't want to hear that about any accomplishments I had a sense of pride about...

Lastly, Moon wasn't "kept out of the NFL". He decided to sign with the Edmonton Eskimos like a month before the NFL draft, because he was afraid he'd be a late round pick, with a limited opportunity to play. But he wasn't like blackballed or anything which isn't the same thing. Other quarterbacks like James Harris, Marlin Briscoe, and Vince Evans were drafted before Moon's time. Mostly late, but they were drafted. Maybe Moon would have also been drafted mid to late, or maybe Moon would have been drafted early by a team that liked him due to his talent, we'll never know. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by TecmoSuperJoe

[Jakuvious]

22 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

I just want to ask a fair question about Mahomes, does he make his receivers better?

We get all the greatness talk about Mahomes but we know part of being great is QBs elevating the players around him. Brady did that to his receivers. I think of Edelman, Welker, and various others that Brady made look great. I think about Peyton and how great he made Wayne and Clark (tight end) great. Currently look at what Stafford Puka and when he was with Detroit how he made Golladay look. Elevated them to look great. 

Then I look at Mahomes and people are still saying he need receivers. He has nobody to throw too. Shouldnt he elevate Rice, Toney, and Moore to being looking great? Not saying he has to make all of them great but can he at least elevate one of them to look like "the guy" where as they would look average to bad on any other team? 

I dont think anyone has pointed that out when talking about how great Mahomes is. Even McNabb made receivers back in the day on the Eagles look better than what they probably really were. 

In the less than one and a half seasons since Hill moved on, Mahomes has gone 22-4, won an MVP, a superbowl, a superbowl MVP, and had a 5500 yard 45 total TD season. Who cares if he does not make one singular WR look great? He makes the whole offense look great when the WRs aren't. Hell, part of why Hill left was he wanted to be fed the ball more. What value is there really in making Kenny Golladay look good while you're leading the 25th best scoring offense in football? Surely you would rather your QB elevate the offense as a whole, right? Not give one guy a statistically good season.

Additionally, who says he hasn't elevated the talent he has, anyway? What has anyone outside of Hill, who is a legitimate hall of fame WR, done once they left KC? Let's look at the list. Sammy Watkins, Demarcus Robinson, Chris Conley, Mecole Hardman, Byron Pringle, JuJu Smith Schuster. Compared to what these guys did after leaving Mahomes, there's a very strong argument to be made that he did elevate them. All have struggled to even make a roster after leaving KC.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

10 hours ago, Soko said:

I mean, minus Mahomes right?

Mahomes is pretty much at the same stage…

I already think Mahomes is a HOF lock. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

9 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

The thing is Nobody really cares about arbitrary  stat milestones when judging the HOF though. This isn’t baseball.  It’s like when some people 10-15 years ago cited Mcnabb low interception rates as why he had some sort of a HOF case. 
 

 

“has as much a chance to make the HOF as anybody his age that's ever played at this juncture of his career.”

 

What do you mean by this? At his age or his years of service?

Well yes, I would like to also think so, but then I don't think someone like Fouts is in the HOF is not for the stat stacking he did pile up. And of course he never got to a Super Bowl.

Allen is 27. A few QBs essentially started their HOF career at that age or higher (Staubach, Moon, Warner, Fouts, or Young). When taking into account how dominant he's already been, with how much longer he could potentially play, in addition to potentially getting a championship...he certainly has a good chance to be in Canton down the road. 

[stl4life07]

@Soko @Jakuvious What yall are both pointing out is the Chiefs as a TEAM being successful. What receiver stood out to you that made you say "the Chiefs dont need another receiver bc that particular receiver is looking great with Mahomes". I never questioned the greatness of Mahomes. As a matter of fact Im doubling down on his greatness and questioning why cant he elevate a receiver as a result? Like I get questions BEFORE like I mentioned Stafford with Puka. It was fair to wonder if the Rams offense will even be decent without Kupp bc you didnt know anything about Puka and what you saw from Tutu was less than to be desired. But once you saw the first four games and how Stafford elevated both Puka and Tutu nobody was even questioning the absence of Kupp. If anything people was saying when Kupp comes back the Rams offense will be even more dynamic bc of how Puka and Tutu was looking.

So when I think of the Chiefs the idea was ok they arent going to pay Hill. Fine. Go draft a Sky Moore. He will be a nice player for the Chiefs bc Mahomes will make him look great. That hasnt even come close to being the case. Ok go trade for Toney. A 1st round pick with ton of talent. He just played for the Giants who had Daniel Jones. A QB many think cant elevate any receivers. Put him with Mahomes then Toney will take off and be great. Well that hasnt even come close to happening. The biggest media Chiefs fan we all know is Nick Wright. He campaigns for the Chiefs to go get an already star receiver bc he barely thinks the current receiving group cant get the job done. 

So no matter how you slice it as we sit here today you cant name me one receiver Mahomes has elevated? And trust me the Chiefs have been trying. They havent took the big swing to go get him a Hopkins or a AJ Brown or an already stud receiver. They are getting him guys that have talent but need a QB like Mahomes who can bring all that talent plus some out that will make them look like a star receiver. He just havent been able to do so. Those receivers he has are just meh receivers with him and we all know it. Week 1 was the perfect example. No Kelce and the Chiefs offense was awful. It was the perfect chance for Mahomes to show he can elevate those receivers to do great things without Kelce at least for one night and that just didnt happen.

And one of you brought up the Pats had receivers that didnt work out with Brady. Thats true. Thats why my original post I said not every receiver has to or will work out. But if you can find that one or two receivers that do bc of your star QB then thats great. Again that what happened with Welker and Edelman with Brady. Thats what happened with Colston with Brees. Thats what happened even with a TJ Houshmandzadeh when he had a prime Carson Palmer throwing him the ball in Cincy back in the day. Teams expect their star QB to elevate the receivers. ARod did it with a Nelson and James Jones. Going back to Stafford he made Golladay get crazy paid. People literally would argue that Golladay was better than Kupp at the time when in reality it was just Stafford making Golladay look great. The second Golladay left dude disappeared. So why cant Mahomes do the same to Moore or Toney? Either of those guys should be looking like a stud receiver with him in that offense. Maybe Rice will idk and Hardman was there before any of them and he never took off but now he is back so lets see how his second stint will go. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by stl4life07

[CP3MVP]

1 hour ago, TecmoSuperJoe said:

Well yes, I would like to also think so, but then I don't think someone like Fouts is in the HOF is not for the stat stacking he did pile up. And of course he never got to a Super Bowl.

Allen is 27. A few QBs essentially started their HOF career at that age or higher (Staubach, Moon, Warner, Fouts, or Young). When taking into account how dominant he's already been, with how much longer he could potentially play, in addition to potentially getting a championship...he certainly has a good chance to be in Canton down the road. 

I think With Fouts it’s more like he was the face of a revolutionary offense that every team in the league after tried to imitate in some fashion. They changed the way offense was played. Allen isn’t apart of anything like that. Fouts also leading the league in passing year after year and an MVP is a bigger deal than random “oh he’s the only one with X amount of 30 TD seasons in a row”.

 

How dominant has he been  if we are gonna go there though? He’s in year 6, he was bad his first 2 seasons. Excellent like top 4 in the league good in 2020. Had an up and down 21 with 2 all time playoff games to cap off the year. 2022 another rollercoaster season with a bad playoff. 

[Dbrog24]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:53 PM, AngusMcFife said:

So Burrow is an all time great playing in his prime yet has never even sniffed an MVP and has 1 pro bowl to his name? I guess it was pretty incredible the way he shut down the Chiefs offense in the second half of that playoff game. 

That's why burrow flat out outplayed Mahomes in 2022 on his way to the superbowl and then 2023 got outplayed by Mahomes and the chiefs...and who turned out to be the Champs. You think there's shame in that or he's not close to the same tier cause he hasn't won a MVP? Again chiefs have a significantly better team and staff. Strange you mention defense too..I didn't know Burrow played edge 😅

[Dbrog24]

Ahhhh.. guys what did I do? I just realized I responded to a guy who thinks Josh Allen is better than everyone even though he's achieved less than the people he's disparaging

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Dbrog24

[TecmoSuperJoe]

1 hour ago, CP3MVP said:

I think With Fouts it’s more like he was the face of a revolutionary offense that every team in the league after tried to imitate in some fashion. They changed the way offense was played. Allen isn’t apart of anything like that. Fouts also leading the league in passing year after year and an MVP is a bigger deal than random “oh he’s the only one with X amount of 30 TD seasons in a row”.

 

How dominant has he been  if we are gonna go there though? He’s in year 6, he was bad his first 2 seasons. Excellent like top 4 in the league good in 2020. Had an up and down 21 with 2 all time playoff games to cap off the year. 2022 another rollercoaster season with a bad playoff. 

FEH? Brian Sipe won an MVP as a QB, and no one largely remembers that, or even him for that matter. Fouts never won one, but did lead the league in arbitrary stats a few times. Praise for that award can be fleeting given the the bigger body of work for a player. People remember/talk about Fouts way more than someone like Sipe or Earl Morrall (HOFer + champ) due to the larger body of work, and of course having a story to tell which folks cherish as you alluded to. 

But see to me that just again leads credence that the idea that the HOF is a fickle mistress, and that for every equation that should let someone in, or keep someone out, there will be a contingent of voters that come together and proclaim "Well he should be in/out due to X narrative despite this other person already being in or out". There's just not a consistent checks and balances to the system. 

Allen may never win an MVP or ring, but that doesn't mean he can't be a HOF player. Everyone already talks him as a unicorn player, which can be part his story that history can latch onto. I'm not convinced he isn't treading towards HOF territory as of now. But back to the your main talking point, he's also another all-time great alongside Mahomes in the league right now. Burrow might be there for me soon too. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by TecmoSuperJoe

[iknowcool]

On 10/20/2023 at 10:39 PM, stl4life07 said:

Brady did that to his receivers. I think of Edelman, Welker, and various others that Brady made look great.

Who are the various others?

[Mr Bad Example]

19 hours ago, lavar703 said:

A black QB going in the first round of the exact same draft invalidates the idea that that was the reason he wasn’t going to be drafted. And there’s no way of knowing if he would’ve been drafted because he never entered the draft. 

"A black QB was drafted in the first round, therefore all racial biases and assumptions about black QBs no longer existed"

[Mr Bad Example]

15 hours ago, TecmoSuperJoe said:

Lastly, Moon wasn't "kept out of the NFL". He decided to sign with the Edmonton Eskimos like a month before the NFL draft, because he was afraid he'd be a late round pick, with a limited opportunity to play. But he wasn't like blackballed or anything which isn't the same thing. Other quarterbacks like James Harris, Marlin Briscoe, and Vince Evans were drafted before Moon's time. Mostly late, but they were drafted. Maybe Moon would have also been drafted mid to late, or maybe Moon would have been drafted early by a team that liked him due to his talent, we'll never know. 

Look at at least two of the names you mention though...

Briscoe was a college QB who was drafted to be a WR. He ended up starting several games for the Broncos out of necessity and one could point out that he outperformed his competition for the QB spot.... But he was immediately moved to wide receiver as soon as his rookie season was over.

 

James Harris was a backup in Buffalo who Chuck Knox brought to LA with him. Harris want 21-6 as a starter over 3 seasons in LA, and made one pro bowl. If you Look at his rate numbers. He performed well above the NFL average for that era. But he was pushed out because Pat Haden was preferred by ownership.

Or look into what happened to Eldridge Dickey - selected by the Raiders in the first round, then they picked Ken Stabler right after him in the second. Thai while having Lamonica and Blanda on the roster. Guess which of the 4 QBs was converted to WR?

[lavar703]

31 minutes ago, Mr Bad Example said:

"A black QB was drafted in the first round, therefore all racial biases and assumptions about black QBs no longer existed"

Is that what I said? My god, stop with the stupid twitter BS on here. Warren Moon was an average college QB. His numbers were pedestrian and he won like two awards his entire time as a starter at Washington. Wasn’t a heisman finalists and there was no evidence he’d ever turn into the QB he became. He was at most a late round pick so he decided to go play in the CFL where he’d actually get to play. Then 5 years later he signed the richest contract in NFL history at that time.
 

Are there times where race played a factor in these decisions? Of course. I just don’t think it did concerning Moon. 

[Chiefer]

14 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

@Soko @Jakuvious What yall are both pointing out is the Chiefs as a TEAM being successful. What receiver stood out to you that made you say "the Chiefs dont need another receiver bc that particular receiver is looking great with Mahomes". I never questioned the greatness of Mahomes. As a matter of fact Im doubling down on his greatness and questioning why cant he elevate a receiver as a result? Like I get questions BEFORE like I mentioned Stafford with Puka. It was fair to wonder if the Rams offense will even be decent without Kupp bc you didnt know anything about Puka and what you saw from Tutu was less than to be desired. But once you saw the first four games and how Stafford elevated both Puka and Tutu nobody was even questioning the absence of Kupp. If anything people was saying when Kupp comes back the Rams offense will be even more dynamic bc of how Puka and Tutu was looking.

So when I think of the Chiefs the idea was ok they arent going to pay Hill. Fine. Go draft a Sky Moore. He will be a nice player for the Chiefs bc Mahomes will make him look great. That hasnt even come close to being the case. Ok go trade for Toney. A 1st round pick with ton of talent. He just played for the Giants who had Daniel Jones. A QB many think cant elevate any receivers. Put him with Mahomes then Toney will take off and be great. Well that hasnt even come close to happening. The biggest media Chiefs fan we all know is Nick Wright. He campaigns for the Chiefs to go get an already star receiver bc he barely thinks the current receiving group cant get the job done. 

So no matter how you slice it as we sit here today you cant name me one receiver Mahomes has elevated? And trust me the Chiefs have been trying. They havent took the big swing to go get him a Hopkins or a AJ Brown or an already stud receiver. They are getting him guys that have talent but need a QB like Mahomes who can bring all that talent plus some out that will make them look like a star receiver. He just havent been able to do so. Those receivers he has are just meh receivers with him and we all know it. Week 1 was the perfect example. No Kelce and the Chiefs offense was awful. It was the perfect chance for Mahomes to show he can elevate those receivers to do great things without Kelce at least for one night and that just didnt happen.

And one of you brought up the Pats had receivers that didnt work out with Brady. Thats true. Thats why my original post I said not every receiver has to or will work out. But if you can find that one or two receivers that do bc of your star QB then thats great. Again that what happened with Welker and Edelman with Brady. Thats what happened with Colston with Brees. Thats what happened even with a TJ Houshmandzadeh when he had a prime Carson Palmer throwing him the ball in Cincy back in the day. Teams expect their star QB to elevate the receivers. ARod did it with a Nelson and James Jones. Going back to Stafford he made Golladay get crazy paid. People literally would argue that Golladay was better than Kupp at the time when in reality it was just Stafford making Golladay look great. The second Golladay left dude disappeared. So why cant Mahomes do the same to Moore or Toney? Either of those guys should be looking like a stud receiver with him in that offense. Maybe Rice will idk and Hardman was there before any of them and he never took off but now he is back so let’s see how his second stint will go. 

Moore doesn’t really understand how to get open in zones, he’s also having some major issues running his routes properly. Timing is very important in an old school scheme like Reid’s, and Moore hasn’t quite developed there yet in his route running. Tbh we really don’t understand what’s happening with him either, but Mahomes doesn’t trust him that’s pretty clear. 

Toney…yeah. I think those drops week one have effected him. Guy talked smack all offseason and then opens like that. He’s also got a sprained toe so he’s on a pitch count and it’s only been for a lot of gadget style plays behind the LOS. 

Like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning didn’t elevate everybody, sometimes guys suck. Mahomes is also having a not so great year by his standards. He’s got that weird funk a lot of QBs have going on right now