Trevor Lawrence and the Jags - Year 4 (T-Law is what he is)

[ronjon1990]

On 11/1/2023 at 4:54 PM, CP3MVP said:

I kinda expected a “generational” QB talent to be an MVP or all pro level player in year 3. 

Same here. 

I mean, look, he hasn't busted. He meets the bare minimum, so there's that. 

But has he really been as advertised? I can't say so. Plenty of guys walk into dysfunctional situations or bad teams. Too many have simply outshone Lawrence in my eyes to buy into his hype and potential until he actually achieves it. Seems more like a Carson Palmer type trajectory where he'll never crater out in his prime, might have a couple of big years, but otherwise remains that guy everyone always said was right on the cusp.....8, 9, 10 years on. 

In the AFCS alone, I thought Richardson showed more untapped potential amd Stroud, I feel, already looks better to me. Levis is an unknown, but he hasn't embarrassed himself either. In 2 or 3 years, Lawrence could well be the oldest QB in the division and the 4th best QB. As you said, for a "generational" guy.....that's sort of hard to get excited about. 

Jacksonville certainly shouldn't complain, he's not bad, and the future for them as a team doesn't look to shabby. But I think it’s disingenuous to not be pretty underwhelmed by his production so far in comparison to his peers. He has a huge step or two to take before I say he's "comfortably" top 10, much less top 5. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by ronjon1990

[-Hope-]

if you draft a QB with the top pick and he's a top 10 QB 3 years into his career, that's an easy hit. any team would take that deal. the only reason people are disappointed is that he was one of the most hyped draft prospects ever, and sure, in that sense, he hasn't taken over the league or anything. but those kind of expectations are always unreasonable.

[Nabbs4u]

2 hours ago, -Hope- said:

if you draft a QB with the top pick and he's a top 10 QB 3 years into his career, that's an easy hit. any team would take that deal. the only reason people are disappointed is that he was one of the most hyped draft prospects ever, and sure, in that sense, he hasn't taken over the league or anything. but those kind of expectations are always unreasonable.

It's why people need to stop calling every 1/2 way decent QB coming out a "Generational" Talent.

Caleb Williams will be no different, watch!

 

John Elway

Peyton Manning

Andrew Luck

Pat Mahomes who not 1 singular expert called Generational,  but is!

That's it the last 40 years.

[Soggust]

On 11/1/2023 at 3:54 PM, CP3MVP said:

I kinda expected a “generational” QB talent to be an MVP or all pro level player in year 3. 

Aside from Pat, Lamar and Dan Marino - I really can't think of any QB off the top of my head that hits this criteria?

 

  

5 hours ago, Nabbs4u said:

It's why people need to stop calling every 1/2 way decent QB coming out a "Generational" Talent.

Caleb Williams will be no different, watch!

 

John Elway

Peyton Manning

Andrew Luck

Pat Mahomes who not 1 singular expert called Generational,  but is!

That's it the last 40 years.

Was Luck even generational in hindsight? I mean, he wasn't an MVP. Didn't win a SB. Never an all-pro.

The guy was good, but I wouldn't even include him on this list personally.

[Nabbs4u]

54 minutes ago, Soggust said:

Aside from Pat, Lamar and Dan Marino - I really can't think of any QB off the top of my head that hits this criteria?

 

  

Was Luck even generational in hindsight? I mean, he wasn't an MVP. Didn't win a SB. Never an all-pro.

The guy was good, but I wouldn't even include him on this list personally.

Yes he was. Injures derailed his career or he'd still be playing and the Colts FQB. 

Who knows where that Colt team in the last 5 years could of ended up with that OL and JT.  Sure wouldn't of been QB Purgatory. 

[Soggust]

14 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said:

Yes he was. Injures derailed his career or he'd still be playing and the Colts FQB. 

Who knows where that Colt team in the last 5 years could of ended up with that OL and JT.  Sure wouldn't of been QB Purgatory. 

But now we are moving the goalposts, right?

Because I agree with you, but a generational talent certainly is more than someone who "would still be playing and a franchise QB".

The guy had 5 full seasons and earned no hardware. He was a great player, but pretty clearly not generational imo. 

[Nabbs4u]

2 hours ago, Soggust said:

But now we are moving the goalposts, right?

Because I agree with you, but a generational talent certainly is more than someone who "would still be playing and a franchise QB".

The guy had 5 full seasons and earned no hardware. He was a great player, but pretty clearly not generational imo. 

How is that moving goal posts? You're only generational if you win a SB?

It took Elway 14 years? Manning 8? If he was still playing, Lucks Colt teams especially when they had the best OL in football, very good defense and JT running wild would of been the Chiefs biggest threat.

Now in retrospect or hindsight of course Andrew Luck wasn't Generational but because his career was cut short by injury. It's like suggesting Bo Jackson wasn't or couldn't of been a "Generational " type RB? Terrell Davis?

Now if Lawrence plays 10-15 more years, wins a SB or two then Yes he could live up to the moniker. Until then, he's not even on Andrew Lucks 5 year level.

Elway, Manning and some Scrub no one thought was Generational in Mahomes actually were/are.

I'm just not a fan of everyone over using the words "Elite" and "Generational ". That's all.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Nabbs4u

[Soggust]

8 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said:

How is that moving goal posts? You're only generational if you win a SB?

It took Elway 14 years? Manning 8? If he was still playing, Lucks Colt teams especially when they had the best OL in football, very good defense and JT running wild would of been the Chiefs biggest threat.

Now in retrospect or hindsight of course Andrew Luck wasn't Generational but because his career was cut short by injury. It's like suggesting Bo Jackson wasn't or couldn't of been a "Generational " type RB? Terrell Davis?

Great question, honestly.

I guess it depends on how you define "generational" or "elite" talent.

If we are saying a generational talent is about college production/measurables/hype, then Trevor is certainly in the same vein as Luck and I would remove Mahomes from the list.

If we are saying a generational talent produces at the NFL level and so we include Mahomes because "hey look what he turned into", then is Brady a generational talent? Rodgers? 

I really don't know how I would define it. More evidence to your point why these terms are dumb, because they are inherently subjective.

[Jakuvious]

4 hours ago, Soggust said:

Aside from Pat, Lamar and Dan Marino - I really can't think of any QB off the top of my head that hits this criteria?

Peyton Manning and Josh Allen were both all-pros and MVP candidates by year 3. Jalen Hurts as well, actually. Joe Burrow had a big year 2 and 3.

Most of the recent top tier QBs have had an elite year by the end of their third season, I think is what generates that sentiment. Mahomes, Lamar, Allen, Burrow, Hurts. Arguably Herbert. Could argue even Tua was on pace for that last year before the concussions racked up. That's kind of your who's who for QBs right now.

Lawrence is having a good season, but statistically it's pretty well on pace for what he did last year, which is a step below from what we've seen from the guys above, at least at their peaks.

[Nabbs4u]

2 minutes ago, Soggust said:

If we are saying a generational talent produces at the NFL level and so we include Mahomes because "hey look what he turned into", then is Brady a generational talent? Rodgers? 

Yes! The NFL has been littered with extremely talented players/QB that never lived up to the hype.

Whether TB12 was a 6th rd pick or not, had the arm of Josh Allen, the legs of Mike Vick or the talent of Pat Mahomes he is still the GOAT. The best QB of his Generation and the past 20 years!

Rodgers might be the most gifted QB we've seen in the past 30 years until now with Mahomes. My problem with Rodgers is his inability to win and make more then 1 SB despite that talent?

To many people get caught up in the numbers IMO. Height, weight, arm strength,  40x, ect. Now if you can combine that with Intelligence,  Accuracy, Footwork,  Leadership and ability to read and disect NFL defenses that's when the special players rise to the top.

[Soggust]

42 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Peyton Manning and Josh Allen were both all-pros and MVP candidates by year 3. Jalen Hurts as well, actually. 

I'll give you all three of these. I was thinking more mvps than trying to remember second team all pros, but fair point.

 

42 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Joe Burrow had a big year 2 and 3.

Most of the recent top tier QBs have had an elite year by the end of their third season, I think is what generates that sentiment. Mahomes, Lamar, Allen, Burrow, Hurts. Arguably Herbert.

Now we are expanding the definition to include mvp "candidates" and an "elite year", which seems to be a different criterion than "I expect an MVP or an All-Pro by year 3".

edit - nvm going back and reading original quote I guess he states "all-pro level" player so I guess that means I am wrong. I suppose I'm a bit more open to it, but it does seem like lofty expectations. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Soggust

[Soggust]

36 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said:

Yes! The NFL has been littered with extremely talented players/QB that never lived up to the hype.

Whether TB12 was a 6th rd pick or not, had the arm of Josh Allen, the legs of Mike Vick or the talent of Pat Mahomes he is still the GOAT. The best QB of his Generation and the past 20 years!

Rodgers might be the most gifted QB we've seen in the past 30 years until now with Mahomes. My problem with Rodgers is his inability to win and make more then 1 SB despite that talent?

To many people get caught up in the numbers IMO. Height, weight, arm strength,  40x, ect. Now if you can combine that with Intelligence,  Accuracy, Footwork,  Leadership and ability to read and disect NFL defenses that's when the special players rise to the top.

Then apart from Luck being generational (which you acknowledged was more of a could have been), I actually totally agree.

[Chiefer]

The Prince who was promised will lead the Jags to a SB one day 

[JaguarCrazy2832]

20 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Same here. 

I mean, look, he hasn't busted. He meets the bare minimum, so there's that. 

But has he really been as advertised? I can't say so. Plenty of guys walk into dysfunctional situations or bad teams. Too many have simply outshone Lawrence in my eyes to buy into his hype and potential until he actually achieves it. Seems more like a Carson Palmer type trajectory where he'll never crater out in his prime, might have a couple of big years, but otherwise remains that guy everyone always said was right on the cusp.....8, 9, 10 years on. 

In the AFCS alone, I thought Richardson showed more untapped potential amd Stroud, I feel, already looks better to me. Levis is an unknown, but he hasn't embarrassed himself either. In 2 or 3 years, Lawrence could well be the oldest QB in the division and the 4th best QB. As you said, for a "generational" guy.....that's sort of hard to get excited about. 

Jacksonville certainly shouldn't complain, he's not bad, and the future for them as a team doesn't look to shabby. But I think it’s disingenuous to not be pretty underwhelmed by his production so far in comparison to his peers. He has a huge step or two to take before I say he's "comfortably" top 10, much less top 5. 

Its year 3 but man year 1 was such an all-time disaster with Urban that its practically year 2 for him

[CP3MVP]

9 hours ago, Nabbs4u said:

How is that moving goal posts? You're only generational if you win a SB?

It took Elway 14 years? Manning 8? If he was still playing, Lucks Colt teams especially when they had the best OL in football, very good defense and JT running wild would of been the Chiefs biggest threat.

Now in retrospect or hindsight of course Andrew Luck wasn't Generational but because his career was cut short by injury. It's like suggesting Bo Jackson wasn't or couldn't of been a "Generational " type RB? Terrell Davis?

Now if Lawrence plays 10-15 more years, wins a SB or two then Yes he could live up to the moniker. Until then, he's not even on Andrew Lucks 5 year level.

Elway, Manning and some Scrub no one thought was Generational in Mahomes actually were/are.

I'm just not a fan of everyone over using the words "Elite" and "Generational ". That's all.

He wasn’t elite so by the constant generational tag he was a disappointment. Peyton was an all pro in year 2. They are not the same 

Edited November 4, 2023 by CP3MVP