Draft Discussion 2.0

[Mind Character]

14 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Not a great game from him, but he played a ton of high safety, including single high. He does not have the instincts of Fitzpatrick yet and might never hit that level, but I'm banking on his potential, tenacity, and twitch. Derwin James is indeed a better SS prospect than a FS, but I think with his speed and lateral agility, he could become a dominant ball-hawking FS in time.

He's certainly a better fit at FS than Peppers is in my opinion. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think Peppers is more equipped to play FS relative to Derwin James.

I'm sure a lot of draft rooms and scouts will have contrasting opinions on Derwin just like us.

If I had to put money on it, He's probably selected 18-24 and he'll be thought of as a LB with SS versatility.

[Dogbite]

I'm with MC on this Derwin/Minkah debate. I have never seen anything special from Derwin in terms of him being a force that opponents have to completely avoid. Even with all the talent at Alabama I have seen more than once teams completely avoid Minkah. He is special. Barkley is Special. I want one of those two and I'm happy.

[MSURacerDT55]

3 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

Orlando Brown is a freaking monster. I was initially worried he wouldn't have the feet to pass protect, but watching him on film, he doesn't struggle with speed rushers. He's also an insanely good run blocker and murdered Roquan Smith multiple times in the playoff game on down blocks. It's a nightmare that he, at 350+, can get to the next level so quickly.

Didn't Roquan still make the tackle? I saw the same shot and Roquan still was on his feet and still in position to make the tackle. Wouldn't murdering constitute him hitting the ground? ?

And no offense but a down block is pretty much the easiest block there is. He's good but he has plenty of deficiencies, namely, knee bend and being a marginal athlete. If you watched the game, you would see him lumbering when he and #78 pulled. That isn't one of his strong points.

[BleedTheClock]

5 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Didn't Roquan still make the tackle? I saw the same shot and Roquan still was on his feet and still in position to make the tackle. Wouldn't murdering constitute him hitting the ground? ?

And no offense but a down block is pretty much the easiest block there is. He's good but he has plenty of deficiencies, namely, knee bend and being a marginal athlete. If you watched the game, you would see him lumbering when he and #78 pulled. That isn't one of his strong points.

Washing a guy down 2 gaps is a mugging to me. He did his job and then some. And down blocks are very difficult against fast athletic linebackers. Is it easier than pulling and kicking? Sure. But it’s certainly not easy. Especially for guys that weigh 350+. It is easy when the linebacker stands there flat-footed and doesn’t react or work over the top though?

Also, he doesn’t need to be pulling. If you’re pulling a 350+ pound OL, you aren’t using your chess pieces very efficiently. He’s a base blocker built for a power run scheme. It’s easy to run counters nowadays with your H-Back replacing the OT as the 2nd looper. It’s an asset to be able to pull your tackles, but that’s the last thing I’m worried about when evaluating these guys. I don’t recall us ever pulling our OTs this year to be honest.

We seem to disagree a lot about Roquan. I still don’t know why you like him. I see Myles Jack 2.0. He’ll be an elite cover linebacker, but I don’t see him as a consistent run defender. I like Roquan, but not as someone that can play ILB in the NFL on an every down basis. I wouldn’t take him in the 1st round, but I’d eat him up in R2 if we didn’t already have Kirksey.

I do want to add a faster ILB to our LB group though. Schobert is an atrocity in coverage and seems to lack the physical gifts to ever make this a strong suit. He’s too good to bench over this deficiency, but I’d like someone that can spell him on 3rd and long. 

[pnies20]

Brown would be a good fit at RT. I feel like they will want Coleman to move to the left side eventually.

[brownie man]

On 1/5/2018 at 10:49 AM, Dogbite said:

I'm with MC on this Derwin/Minkah debate. I have never seen anything special from Derwin in terms of him being a force that opponents have to completely avoid. Even with all the talent at Alabama I have seen more than once teams completely avoid Minkah. He is special. Barkley is Special. I want one of those two and I'm happy.

@Mind Character

its been some years 

but would you compare Minkah to what Charles Woodson did with Green Bay in 2010 when they won the Super Bowl?

he was that nickel, outside corner, safety mix that was used everywhere 

that has been one of my favorite player to role fits of alll time 

that what Dom Capers best work in my opinion the way he used Woodson while he was in Green Bay. Would you say Minkah could play in that role?

Because id say that year Woodson was the second most important players after Rogers on that team 

[Mind Character]

1 hour ago, brownie man said:

@Mind Character

its been some years 

but would you compare Minkah to what Charles Woodson did with Green Bay in 2010 when they won the Super Bowl?

he was that nickel, outside corner, safety mix that was used everywhere 

that has been one of my favorite player to role fits of alll time 

that what Dom Capers best work in my opinion the way he used Woodson while he was in Green Bay. Would you say Minkah could play in that role?

Because id say that year Woodson was the second most important players after Rogers on that team 

I'm off the idea of drafting Minkah to be a CB.

And Tbh... when it comes to the Charles Woodson comp...I don't know.

I only remember highlights of Woodson being a force that year and didn't really watch closely for how he was used in the post. All the highlights I remember were with him as a nickel defender that year.

But I'm pretty sure I get your point though...

The the thing is....coming out of college, would you have said Jabrill Peppers can do all those things at an elite level?

I ask that question b/c that is really the comparison everyone is missing; that is, a nickel safety that either lines up as a SS or as LB in the defensive alignment.

Minkah's less talented of an athlete but more instinctual and disciplined as a nickel defender than Jabrill.

He's not a instinctual savant a la Tyran Mathieu where your going to be moving him around to take away TEs on one play, then match him up in press man on the boundary another, followed by having him range in the post as S.

Therefore, all this talk about using him as some Swiss Army Knife/ master chess piece a la Woodson doesn't really match he reality of his play and ability imo. The film says otherwise... that he excels at many positions mostly b/c his athleticism and technique/discipline (which he is on an elite level) dominates lesser talents/competition.

But if you watch closely... there are glaring weaknesses to his game that simply means that if you draft him your drafting him to play one primary role that caters to his strengths.

You're drafting him to be Jamal Adams sans the next level transformational leadership intangibles.

That's where he is at his best.... A Strong Safety that will make impact plays in pass defense, but will be special when you need him to come up in run support and when you need him to man a zone to take away TEs/WR2s routes over the middle of the field to the boundary.

While Adams was the bigger/stronger athlete, Minkah is quicker and has better hips and movement skills as a SS.

Now, is that worth a Top 5 pick? I say absolutely b/c he does what he does at such a high level.

Is that worth a Top 5 pick on a team with Jabrill Peppers? Meh...probably not as their skill sets overlap enough to the point of some redundancy.

If we make Jabrill a permanent FS and Minkah the SS, is the Top 5 pick worth it? Yeah...probably...and the pairing might be interesting.

To be clear, I think that would not be maximizing the skill of Jabrill, but I do think he has more FS impact and ability  than Minkah.

 

[dawgpound1816]

On Tuesday, January 02, 2018 at 9:11 PM, Dogbite said:

I don't know about you but I want nothing to do with sustaining what we have right now. If Dorsey comes in here drafting to keep status quo I just might smother myself in something smelly and take a long walk into the allegany mountains to let a bear eat me. Honestly is sounds more fun to me than watching another Cameron Erving pick because we might lose Alex Mack. Screw that crap that is exactly why Mack wanted out. Draft to improve the team and win games and guys like Mack will want to stay.

Bro...you took it the wrong way. With the situation he was in, he was proactive in keeping strengths strengths when the opportunity was there. And sustain the growth of the excellent roster they had. He kept them competitive by bringing in talent on top of the talent they already had. 

Eric Fisher was drafted when their current LT was on his last year of his contract. 

Drafted Mahomes in Smiths last year of being on the team per the $11 mil they're projected to be over the cap at the beginning of league year in 18.

Was part of drafting Aaron Rodgers with Brett Favre as the starter to succeed him. 

Drafted Dee Ford the offseason before Houston signed his contract to be sure they had someone to succeed him. Houston signed the extension. 

In the midst of it all, he was able to bring in FAs to keep the Chiefs competitive and signed his good players to long term contracts. All the while he was drafting smart and being aggressive. He may be from the Wolf Green Bay Tree, but he's not afraid to do whatever it takes to turn around a team. He will find a Qb like he did in KC. Whatever it takes.

I'm stoked about Dorsey being here, and I feel comfortable he will make this roster competitive. 1st move he made was within what 36 hrs? Kenny Britt + Cancer = He Gone. Sashi on getting Britt...he was only here to eat cap this year so Haslam didn't have to pay a luxury tax. Britt said thanks for the free money. In all actuality, Sashi probably thought he was getting a solid veteran to help the young WR core. 

Listening to Joe Thomas breakdown of Sashis plan was hilarious and eye opening on how much the players understood their 2 seasons with Sashi at the helm. He said...the 1st 2 years of Sashis 4 year plan was to accumulate as many high picks as possible, try to be competitive and get as much cap as possible. The 2 years were up, and the flush happened by getting rid of Veterans and now he gone because he doesn't understand talent. Now the football guy "John Dorsey" will utilize the assets Sashi brought in. Sashi gets the backlash by decimating the roster and constantly trading out to acquire picks instead of drafting quality talent. Now....Dorsey gets freedom to do what he wants. At the end of the day, Sashis plan could've went better, but he couldn't find talent if it slapped him in the face. 

[H2ThaIzzo]

to add to the post above, there is a specific reason why Paul D. is still an employee for us. Paul is known as a cap specialist, obviously moreso in baseball, but studying the cap is what he did for us and what he will do for us. His role isn't to prevent us from signing guys and paying guys, but it's to help prevent situations where we end up spending too much in the wrong areas and have cap fiasco's in the future. John to my knowledge didn't really have a guy like that in Kansas City, and where his expertise is in talent recognition, him having someone to counterbalance that when it comes to the financial terms is beneficial. There's a reason teams like Baltimore, Dallas, Seattle, etc. struggle at times when it comes to attracting big time free agents. Baltimore spends the money on defense but when Joe Flacco is your QB, you have to be able to surround him with talent. Dallas has a RB, a QB, an OL, and no other future playmakers on that offense. 

[candyman93]

I saw Vaccaro and Bell work pretty damn well today. Somebody please tell me why Peppers and Fitzpatrick can’t?

[buno67]

4 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

I saw Vaccaro and Bell work pretty damn well today. Somebody please tell me why Peppers and Fitzpatrick can’t?

because they both played within 15yards of the LOS

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

8 hours ago, buno67 said:

because they both played within 15yards of the LOS

Yeah it’s weird how guys are able to make plays when lined up where people actually play football.

[Mind Character]

Just got done reviewing Orlando Brown Jr. and Connor Williams over the last 2 seasons.

I was surprised that what I saw didn't match recent talk of both them going top 10.

Both of them are fringe 1st round players and no way in hell would it make any sense to take them as Joe T's replacement top 10.

Brown is massive and wins with length put his pad level is awful and he is easily pushed out of balance on Counter rush moves where sound techniques gets underneath his pads.

He struggled mightily in 5 games (3 last year; 2 this year) with the speed rush but it just didn't hurt Oklahoma as the ball was out of the QBs hand lightning fast. In the NFL, a lot of his mishaps lead to FFs and strip sacks, or worse an injured QB. Has a lot of raw tools and power to be developed and he is a good prospect but no where close to this elite franchise LT that many are speaking about him as.

Connor Williams has no length whatsoever and lets DEs get into his pads leaving him to hold and be real grabby. Unless he starts using Bryan Bulaga's outside pad hold technique, he is going to struggle with inside power and speed as he often over sets or doesn't strike the defensive player in a way to get him off balance. Surprisingly poor punch. Inconsistent against lesser talents.

He is however an exceptional run blocker and has tremendous movement skills. I'd make him a LG where his skills likely translate to a long career of success.

I'd be beyond pissed and really question our FO if we went OT in the top 5 even if Joe Thomas retires...you can't force a pick b/c of need and the OT talent isn't good enough for that pick as the OTs won't be close to the talent/impact of a BPA at that point. imo.

[brownie man]

Never been a big Williams fan at all. I don’t see it either looks like a bust to me 

Brown however I love his run blocking. He needs some refinement but he’s really good it’s hard to get past him you’ve got to work for it. 

I would take him at 4 his run blocking is just sexy and maybe that’s what’s gets me. He haven’t had a mauler in a long time 

[Mind Character]

23 minutes ago, brownie man said:

Never been a big Williams fan at all. I don’t see it either looks like a bust to me 

Brown however I love his run blocking. He needs some refinement but he’s really good it’s hard to get past him you’ve got to work for it. 

I would take him at 4 his run blocking is just sexy and maybe that’s what’s gets me. He haven’t had a mauler in a long time 

That's just nuts Brownie...you don't take a run blocker no matter how good at 4 with major pass pro holes in their game when pass pro issues are what hurt your QB/get them injured. Brown's a nice prospect but has serious limitations. I was shocked at the issues in leverage and pass pro.

He and Connor Williams aren't close to the total prospect that Kolton Miller out of UCLA is. And while I like him a ton, he's not even worth a top 15 pick.

That franchise LT just isn't available in this draft.

You can't force it.

We can't take a tackle top 5 and sit him for a year or 2 like he's a young QB or put him at RT while Joe T grooms him.

I'm confused as to why so many want to do this.

I know it's important to protect a young/vet QB, but Joe T was the #1-#4 LT analytically speaking in the league this year....he's not going to retire this year.

We have soooo much to upgrade upon...now's not the time for succession planning at LT as if we start winning I'm sure Joe T might be rejuvenated a la Andrew Whitworth and play a few more years.