Deadpulse Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 37 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: 46 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: What has she shown to be so good at? She mind tricked after a few tries a lowly storm trooper. She fought off a severely injured Kylo Ren after initially struggling against him. She fought off non-force users with Kylo's help (Kylo was 3 on 1 at one point while Rey had her hands full with one). She lifted some rocks. Doesn't seem like a great resume to me. HEY! Stop pointing out facts! Let me argue my straw-man because its the only way I can be mad that they didnt make the movie exactly the way I wanted I'd like to point out this is not apart of my response lol 37 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: Downplaying her achievements aside, it's still a hell of a lot more than Luke did at the same stage despite him actually being trained. Is it? We can't know that because he never attempted to fight with a saber until he took on Vader. Vader is probably the baddest of the bad in terms of lightsaber duels and Luke held his own after about a week of training. Seems farther along to me. I'm not sure how I am downplaying her achievements by just listing them as they happened. Her biggest achievements are her lightsaber fights. However, TFA clearly shows she is ALREADY an adept close quarter combat fighter, likely practicing with her staff for most of her life alone. That's not me downplaying her achievement either, thats me pointing out she has more training in combat than most give her credit for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickButera Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 I think it boils down to general storylines to me. Like I said, I really enjoyed the movie. But I have to be honest, this is star wars, so naturally expectations are it should be nothing short of great, especially the story above all else. TFA created some fantastic mysteries, some super intriguing questions, and some very good storylines that could go a million different ways. The fans didn't create these, TFA did. In fact these open ended plot points were so good they inspired years of speculation and conversation after the movie. This is a huge success for a first trilogy movie, and really what you want. To not answer a single one of these, and to simply discard these plot points as nothing is either a major failure for such a prestigious franchise, or a massive undersight. Is it allowed? Sure. But man alive they could have done so much better. I didn't want it to go any one direction, I just wanted hem to build on what they themselves created, in any way. Build on those mysteries, take the questions you gave us further in some form. Don't just say the things you build up for me dont matter now for no reason. It feels lazy and like a cheap cop out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretgod99 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 Re: @MKnight82‘s issues - Snoke is a static character who is an onstacle for Ren to overcome. Just like the Emperor was for Vader. Why does it matter that he’s killed off whithout a backstory? The Emperor was, too. How is the FO dominating the Resistance wiping out everything TFA accomplished? TFA did not show us that the Resistance is bigger and better than the FO. It showed us that the Resistance lost its funding and governmental support. Despite taking out Starkiller Base, the Resistance was shown to be in a very bad situation. Luke not wanting to be found does not undo anythjng from TFA. Everybody is analyzing this from outsider perspectives. Even in TFA, it was clear that Luke wasn’t involved and didn’t want to be. So why are we surprised that he still doesn’t want to be involved once he’s found. Just because the Resistance thought he’d be their savior doesn’t mean he ever intended to be that for them. Aside from showing her how to actually understand and work with the Force, sure Luke taught her nothing. Also, aside from the whole perspective, your legends aren’t really your legends stuff, too. Hux was not a strong, evil villain in TFA. He was a caricature. Completely flat. He actually has a modicum of depth in this film. He’s the butt of like two jokes, hardly a walking punchline. And as I’ve stated numerous times, I wholeheartedly disagree on Ren’s development. I think he’s developing nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretgod99 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, NickButera said: I think it boils down to general storylines to me. Like I said, I really enjoyed the movie. But I have to be honest, this is star wars, so naturally expectations are it should be nothing short of great, especially the story above all else. TFA created some fantastic mysteries, some super intriguing questions, and some very good storylines that could go a million different ways. The fans didn't create these, TFA did. In fact these open ended plot points were so good they inspired years of speculation and conversation after the movie. This is a huge success for a first trilogy movie, and really what you want. To not answer a single one of these, and to simply discard these plot points as nothing is either a major failure for such a prestigious franchise, or a massive undersight. Is it allowed? Sure. But man alive they could have done so much better. I didn't want it to go any one direction, I just wanted hem to build on what they themselves created, in any way. Build on those mysteries, take the questions you gave us further in some form. Don't just say the things you build up for me dont matter now for no reason. It feels lazy and like a cheap cop out. How would Rey’s parents resolution be “so much better” if they were famous? What storylines did you want them to follow up on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDrew Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 16 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: None of that answers what was wiped out. That all sounds like not matching expectations. Luke was always emotional, and reacted on that. Yoda was afraid that it would lead him down the same path as Anakin while training him. He failed, so he left. Why is that so hard to believe? Luke also did come back to save everybody in the most badass Jedi way we've seen yet. Kylo Ren is a young and conflicted, with a ton of power. He's more immature than power hungry. He doesn't kill Rey because he believes he can turn her into his apprentice, but he knows Snkoe will kill her. Hux was never a joke. He went from knowing he had Snoke to protect him from Kylo Ren, to knowing he had Kylo Ren. Even Vader got push back from the generals and had to be called off from choking them. Rey moving stuff isn't crazy, and doesn't go against anything we've learned. She already knew how to fight with her staff, so fighting with a lightsaber isn't crazy. She had heard the legends of Luke Skywalker saving the galaxy, so the stories of things he did were out there. She said she could always feel something inside that she couldn't explain, and she saw things when she found Luke's lightsaber. Something awoke inside her, and it could have been the Force. It kind of explains why they called the movie we meet her in The Force Awakens. We also know that she's not trained yet, but thought she was stronger than she actually is when she thought she could take on Snoke. None of that goes against things we've already learned. Most of even matches things we've seen before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 34 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: This is so short sighted. We are living in the age of cinematic universes. Star Wars has always had its own lore built over multiple movies. Star Wars has its stand alone movies, first with Rogue One and the Han Solo movie is coming soon. The Last Jedi isn't a stand alone movie. Episode VIII is specifically designed to be an extension of an existing story that has been told for decades now. It completely failed as an extension of that story IMO. How is it short sighted to say each film should have its own story to tell? Its the exact thing that everyone hated about the final Harry Potter, Hunger Games, etc. films. Its what people were (and still are) skeptical about with Infinity War1&2. And that was my point about Marvel getting it right. We may be living in the "age of cinematic universes" but only one of them has really nailed it. So why would taking their lead not be your first instinct? Just about every MCU movie till this point has been stand alone, with the larger over arching stories being affected by those storied (and completely connected). Im not even saying that the new set of Star Wars trilogy needs to be that detached from each other. But the thing that starts this entire Franchise so well is that A New Hope stands on its own. From the jump TFA was leaning on the past, and really being propped up by this promised future (that now many are disappointed that it didnt deliver the way they wanted). If we got more of a full story, which I think was the original intent, with some more fabric to those dangling plot threads, people wouldnt feel so betrayed by TLJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, fretgod99 said: Snoke is a static character who is an onstacle for Ren to overcome. Just like the Emperor was for Vader. Why does it matter that he’s killed off whithout a backstory? The Emperor was, too. The emperor wasn't introduced in the origin story. 2 minutes ago, fretgod99 said: How is the FO dominating the Resistance wiping out everything TFA accomplished? TFA did not show us that the Resistance is bigger and better than the FO. It showed us that the Resistance lost its funding and governmental support. Despite taking out Starkiller Base, the Resistance was shown to be in a very bad situation The resistance has been eradicated now. The only thing they can do for Episode IX that makes any sense is to do a huge jump forward in time, like say 10 years. 4 minutes ago, fretgod99 said: Luke not wanting to be found does not undo anythjng from TFA. Everybody is analyzing this from outsider perspectives. Even in TFA, it was clear that Luke wasn’t involved and didn’t want to be. So why are we surprised that he still doesn’t want to be involved once he’s found. Just because the Resistance thought he’d be their savior doesn’t mean he ever intended to be that for them. Yes but meeting up with Luke was basically a waste of time (which was pretty much the entire plot of FA). 5 minutes ago, fretgod99 said: Aside from showing her how to actually understand and work with the Force, sure Luke taught her nothing. Also, aside from the whole perspective, your legends aren’t really your legends stuff, too. Again, for 7 movies we've been shown the Jedi as the good guys and the defenders of the galaxy from the dark side. There's certainly still followers of the dark side out there killing people. 9 minutes ago, fretgod99 said: Hux was not a strong, evil villain in TFA. He was a caricature. Completely flat. He actually has a modicum of depth in this film. He’s the butt of like two jokes, hardly a walking punchline. Can you imagine them taking Tarkin in the Empire Strikes Back and using him as a fool for laughs? That's pretty much what TLJ did. 10 minutes ago, fretgod99 said: And as I’ve stated numerous times, I wholeheartedly disagree on Ren’s development. I think he’s developing nicely. I'm on the complete opposite of the spectrum on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 35 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: I'd like to point out this is not apart of my response lol Is it? We can't know that because he never attempted to fight with a saber until he took on Vader. Vader is probably the baddest of the bad in terms of lightsaber duels and Luke held his own after about a week of training. Seems farther along to me. I'm not sure how I am downplaying her achievements by just listing them as they happened. Her biggest achievements are her lightsaber fights. However, TFA clearly shows she is ALREADY an adept close quarter combat fighter, likely practicing with her staff for most of her life alone. That's not me downplaying her achievement either, thats me pointing out she has more training in combat than most give her credit for. She mind tricked after a few tries a lowly storm trooper- It's not like it's something we commonly see. Certainly not from a beginner. Also something Luke doesn't do until his third movie, and something he still fails at in episode 6. Rey succeeds 5 minutes after learns she has powers. That's a bit much She fought off a severely injured Kylo Ren after initially struggling against him-You ignore that she also won this battle, would've killed him had the ground not separated and had never used a lightsaber before against someone Luke personally trained. I understand he was injured but he wasn't dying. Luke gets wrecked by Vader and loses an arm despite receiving at least a little training from two masters. Is it the most unbelievable thing that's ever happened? No, but it would've made more sense to end it a different way She fought off non-force users with Kylo's help-Fair, though I assume they were powerful if they were Snoke's guard and they were also giving Kylo trouble She lifted some rocks-Even you have to admit your downplaying here. She lifted tens of thousands of pounds worth of weight...somehow. It's actually a cool visual and moment but it's pretty ridiculous too. Luke couldn't even lift his ship with Yoda teaching him I know you didn't bring it up, someone else did, but the trench run is hilarious to use as a pro for Luke and evidence of someone not actually watching the movie. I haven't seen Episode 4 in years and I know for a fact that Luke wasn't the first person to hit the target, had Obi-Wan helping him and he was still going to get killed by Vader until Han saved him. Luke always struggled/failed at first and when he succeeded he always had help. Rey doesn't have those moments. She does all of these things on her own (except the Snoke's guard battle). If you can't see the difference between the two there is no point in arguing. We aren't going to agree. I'm not saying it's mind boggling how good she is, or that it ruins the movies, just that it's annoying at how she succeeds at everything on her first try when it took everyone else a lot more time. There is a reason she has the Mary Sue moniker tossed at her and Luke doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, fretgod99 said: How would Rey’s parents resolution be “so much better” if they were famous? What storylines did you want them to follow up on? I like that people are continuing to forget that Rey told us very early on exactly who she was, ans where she comes from; that she is No One. Its why Daisy Ridley said that she thought it was pretty obvious who her parents were. That character nor the story has never lied to us. It was all of us who have infused these theories for over 3 years now, ever since that first teaser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: I like that people are continuing to forget that Rey told us very early on exactly who she was, ans where she comes from; that she is No One. Its why Daisy Ridley said that she thought it was pretty obvious who her parents were. That character nor the story has never lied to us. It was all of us who have infused these theories for over 3 years now, ever since that first teaser. I'm not upset about Rey's parents being nobodies but I totally forgot about that. That's a good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnygsm Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 Hux has always been a bit over the top, but his character was much better in TFA. He at least seemed like an equal to Kylo. They turned him into a total clown in this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretgod99 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 43 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: Can you imagine them taking Tarkin in the Empire Strikes Back and using him as a fool for laughs? That's pretty much what TLJ did. You mean like how Vader Force Chokes like half the Imperial Officers he comes across? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 Just now, fretgod99 said: You mean like how Vader Force Chokes like half the Imperial Officers he comes across? Tarkin wasn't some random imperial officer and neither is Hux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnygsm Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 Just now, fretgod99 said: You mean like how Vader Force Chokes like half the Imperial Officers he comes across? Come on man. Those force chokes never really came across as funny at all. It showed that you don't mess with Vader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretgod99 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 44 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: The emperor wasn't introduced in the origin story. The Emperor was introduced in V, and became a character in VI. He was completely static and served only as an obstacle for Vader and Luke to be overcome. Snoke was introduced in VII, had little actual involvement there, was more of a character in VIII, and again serves only as an obstacle to be overcome for Ren and Rey. Could they have done something different woth him? Sure. But this isn’t the Snoke story. It’s clearly about Ren and Rey. Having Snoke be more than what he is distracts from who we’re supposed to be focusing on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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