MagicMT Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 5 minutes ago, Kingram said: Dennis Allen is a below average HC and Pete Carmichael was a bottom 3 OC in football. Coaching is pretty important in the NFL. I agree with that. Not sure about bottom 3 OC in football because there's a lot of competition (Hackett / Getsy / Kelly and who can forgets Matt Canada who was OC just last year - can't be worse than him) but anyway your point stand. But which players are making up that top 16 roster? Roster strength isn't about coaching, it's about players. Saints aren't really strong at important positions (QB / WR / DL) although they have an average/above-average OL and some good CBs. Who is even their best player? I went and took a look at the roster as it is now... Not seeing the top half of the league stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 3 hours ago, MagicMT said: I agree with that. Not sure about bottom 3 OC in football because there's a lot of competition (Hackett / Getsy / Kelly and who can forgets Matt Canada who was OC just last year - can't be worse than him) but anyway your point stand. But which players are making up that top 16 roster? Roster strength isn't about coaching, it's about players. Saints aren't really strong at important positions (QB / WR / DL) although they have an average/above-average OL and some good CBs. Who is even their best player? I went and took a look at the roster as it is now... Not seeing the top half of the league stuff Think there's is a lots of fans whose would likes to forgets Matts Canadas. And that's what i's appreciates abouts hims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingram Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 10 hours ago, MagicMT said: I agree with that. Not sure about bottom 3 OC in football because there's a lot of competition (Hackett / Getsy / Kelly and who can forgets Matt Canada who was OC just last year - can't be worse than him) but anyway your point stand. But which players are making up that top 16 roster? Roster strength isn't about coaching, it's about players. Saints aren't really strong at important positions (QB / WR / DL) although they have an average/above-average OL and some good CBs. Who is even their best player? I went and took a look at the roster as it is now... Not seeing the top half of the league stuff Carr isn’t a bad QB. He’s not a great QB either. He’s probably in that 16-20 range which puts him right about middle of the road. The WR room is really good so I don’t know what you’re basing that off of. Chris Olave is really good, Rashid Shaheed is good. They need some depth with MT leaving but that’s easily a top half of the league WR room. Granderson is coming off a break out year, Breese looks like he’s going to be really good, Chase Young will be on a prove it deal. Injuries have been an issue on the DL for sure and Cam Jordan is cooked. OL struggled early last year but figured it out in the second half. Could use another OT. Kamara and Miller is a strong HB room. LB unit is very good. Secondary is elite. The defense is pretty consistently a top 10 unit, even with injuries amongst its best players. Hoping Kubiak can be a massive improvement over Carmichael, I don’t think calling it a top 16 roster on paper is outlandish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMT Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 52 minutes ago, Kingram said: Carr isn’t a bad QB. He’s not a great QB either. He’s probably in that 16-20 range which puts him right about middle of the road. The WR room is really good so I don’t know what you’re basing that off of. Chris Olave is really good, Rashid Shaheed is good. They need some depth with MT leaving but that’s easily a top half of the league WR room. Granderson is coming off a break out year, Breese looks like he’s going to be really good, Chase Young will be on a prove it deal. Injuries have been an issue on the DL for sure and Cam Jordan is cooked. OL struggled early last year but figured it out in the second half. Could use another OT. Kamara and Miller is a strong HB room. LB unit is very good. Secondary is elite. The defense is pretty consistently a top 10 unit, even with injuries amongst its best players. Hoping Kubiak can be a massive improvement over Carmichael, I don’t think calling it a top 16 roster on paper is outlandish. -Carr just ain't a good QB, he's below middle of the road. More like 20-25 which isn't very impressive at the most important in the sport but okay, -WR is really good? I think Olave is good but you can't tell me Shaheed (who I like) is a good #2 (might become one but he's definitely not there yet) or that Perry is a good #3 compared to many other WR3 in the league right now. Any way you slice it they don't have a top 10 WR room (Dolphins, Vikings, 49ers, Eagles, Bengals, Seahawks, Rams, Lions, Raiders, Texans, Bucs, going to stop there) so how can outside the top 10 be "really good". We might have a different definition of what is pretty good. -The DL is not good. As you mentioned Jordan is cooked, Granderson is good but definitely not a top 15 DE in the league and then who are the other good edges on that roster? Chase Young is an absolute bust and there's a reason both Commanders & 49ers didn't want to resign him. And Breese is a young ascending player but still not a great unit and definitely bottom 3rd in the league. So a below average QB / average at best WR room / below average Dline. -Their OL is okay-good and I would rank them upper half of the league (10-15). -Their RB room is okay, don't know how adding Miller (who didn't do much as a rookie last year) with Kamara makes it "strong". -LB group is very good (top 10) -Secondary is very good as well (top 10) We might have a different perspective about the Saints roster and we probably don't see eye to eye with certain players or regarding other players in the league. Doing a deep dive personally I don't see a top half of the league roster and with their cap limitations I feel like the Saints are not in a good position as a team right now and they'll require a lot of work before going back to being SB contenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 (edited) 50 minutes ago, MagicMT said: -Carr just ain't a good QB, he's below middle of the road. More like 20-25 which isn't very impressive at the most important in the sport but okay, I just can't agree with that. I get that people love to hate Carr (easy to do lol), but he's definitely around top 15. In year 1 with the Saints working with a terrible OC in Carmichael, he was: 10th in QB Rating 10th in touchdown passes 6th in completion percentage 13th in passing yards 12th in touchdown pass percentage 3rd best interception percentage 7th best in sack percentage He was 4th lowest in total interceptions among QB's with 400+ attempts and had the lowest interception total among QB's with 500+ attempts 50 minutes ago, MagicMT said: -WR is really good? I think Olave is good but you can't tell me Shaheed (who I like) is a good #2 (might become one but he's definitely not there yet) or that Perry is a good #3 compared to many other WR3 in the league right now. Any way you slice it they don't have a top 10 WR room (Dolphins, Vikings, 49ers, Eagles, Bengals, Seahawks, Rams, Lions, Raiders, Texans, Bucs, going to stop there) so how can outside the top 10 be "really good". We might have a different definition of what is pretty good. I'm not going to say Shaheed is a high end WR #2 (yet), but he has a ton of potential and has been statistically the 2nd best deep threat in the NFL behind Tyreek Hill. He is definitely on the rise as a player. I do think another quality WR/TE is probably going to be added between now and the start of the season. 50 minutes ago, MagicMT said: -The DL is not good. As you mentioned Jordan is cooked, Granderson is good but definitely not a top 15 DE in the league and then who are the other good edges on that roster? Chase Young is an absolute bust and there's a reason both Commanders & 49ers didn't want to resign him. And Breese is a young ascending player but still not a great unit and definitely bottom 3rd in the league. Young isn't an absolute bust. His pass rush metrics were solid if not good last season. His effort has been questioned at times and because of it, I understand why the 49ers wouldn't want to throw a big multi year deal his way. If young plays like he did last season, or even slightly better another year removed from his big knee injury, I think he will be a solid pass rushing threat for us. Breese looks like he's going to be a good DT for us, and Granderson is a solid pass rusher. I won't say this is a top tier unit, but I think it can be an average unit with a good LB core and great secondary working with them on defense. 50 minutes ago, MagicMT said: So a below average QB / average at best WR room / below average Dline. -Their OL is okay-good and I would rank them upper half of the league (10-15). -Their RB room is okay, don't know how adding Miller (who didn't do much as a rookie last year) with Kamara makes it "strong". Kendre Miller is still a projection, but I think most Saints fans are looking at how explosive he looked in the season finale and are excited about what he can bring to the team this season. Coming off the knee injury in the college football playoffs, it definitely took him awhile to get going especially with some minor injuries along the way during his rookie season, but this is a guy that would have had a good chance of going in the 2nd round in last years draft had he not injured his knee. Very explosive RB with good size and contact balance to pick up big plays. Kamara being properly utilized in space with Kubiak should be a blessing for him especially with his skills as a pass catcher. 50 minutes ago, MagicMT said: -LB group is very good (top 10) -Secondary is very good as well (top 10) We might have a different perspective about the Saints roster and we probably don't see eye to eye with certain players or regarding other players in the league. Doing a deep dive personally I don't see a top half of the league roster and with their cap limitations I feel like the Saints are not in a good position as a team right now and they'll require a lot of work before going back to being SB contenders. Drastic difference of opinion on Carr I think does quite a bit in this instance of how optimistic or pessimistic one is about the Saints this season. If Kubiak comes in and helps get even more out of Carr this season, I think that goes a long way for us in potentially winning the division. Edited March 19 by tyler735 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMT Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 (edited) 30 minutes ago, tyler735 said: I just can't agree with that. I get that people love to hate Carr (easy to do lol), but he's definitely around top 15. In year 1 with the Saints working with a terrible OC in Carmichael, he was: 10th in QB Rating 10th in touchdown passes 6th in completion percentage 13th in passing yards 12th in touchdown pass percentage 3rd best interception percentage 7th best in sack percentage He was 4th lowest in total interceptions among QB's with 400+ attempts and had the lowest interception total among QB's with 500+ attempts. Yup those stats reflect a average passer but would you take Carr before these QBs? Mahomes / Allen / Jackson / Burrow / Herbert / Love / Stroud / Purdy / Goff / Stafford / Prescott / Cousins / Hurts / Rodgers / Tua / Lawrence / Richardson and then I'd argue Geno Smith, Kyler Murray and Baker Mayfield are 3 QBs I'd take before Carr if starting a team tomorrow. That's 20 QBs right there and that's not counting Caleb Williams and Jayden Daniels who I'd take before Carr 10 out of 10 times even if they never played a NFL down yet. Edited March 19 by MagicMT 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMT Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 30 minutes ago, tyler735 said: I just can't agree with that. I get that people love to hate Carr (easy to do lol), but he's definitely around top 15. In year 1 with the Saints working with a terrible OC in Carmichael, he was: 10th in QB Rating 10th in touchdown passes 6th in completion percentage 13th in passing yards 12th in touchdown pass percentage 3rd best interception percentage 7th best in sack percentage He was 4th lowest in total interceptions among QB's with 400+ attempts and had the lowest interception total among QB's with 500+ attempts I'm not going to say Shaheed is a high end WR #2 (yet), but he has a ton of potential and has been statistically the 2nd best deep threat in the NFL behind Tyreek Hill. He is definitely on the rise as a player. I do think another quality WR/TE is probably going to be added between now and the start of the season. Young isn't an absolute bust. His pass rush metrics were solid if not good last season. His effort has been questioned at times and because of it, I understand why the 49ers wouldn't want to throw a big multi year deal his way. If young plays like he did last season, or even slightly better another year removed from his big knee injury, I think he will be a solid pass rushing threat for us. Breese looks like he's going to be a good DT for us, and Granderson is a solid pass rusher. I won't say this is a top tier unit, but I think it can be an average unit with a good LB core and great secondary working with them on defense. Kendre Miller is still a projection, but I think most Saints fans are looking at how explosive he looked in the season finale and are excited about what he can bring to the team this season. Coming off the knee injury in the college football playoffs, it definitely took him awhile to get going especially with some minor injuries along the way during his rookie season, but this is a guy that would have had a good chance of going in the 2nd round in last years draft had he not injured his knee. Very explosive RB with good size and contact balance to pick up big plays. Kamara being properly utilized in space with Kubiak should be a blessing for him especially with his skills as a pass catcher. Drastic difference of opinion on Carr I think does quite a bit in this instance of how optimistic or pessimistic one is about the Saints this season. If Kubiak comes in and helps get even more out of Carr this season, I think that goes a long way for us in potentially winning the division. Fair enough, we can disagree and that's fine, but thanks for the breakdown! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 32 minutes ago, tyler735 said: I just can't agree with that. I get that people love to hate Carr (easy to do lol), but he's definitely around top 15. In year 1 with the Saints working with a terrible OC in Carmichael, he was: 10th in QB Rating 10th in touchdown passes 6th in completion percentage 13th in passing yards 12th in touchdown pass percentage 3rd best interception percentage 7th best in sack percentage He was 4th lowest in total interceptions among QB's with 400+ attempts and had the lowest interception total among QB's with 500+ attempts Like Russell Wilson last year, Derek Carr's stats are mostly empty. The eye test just doesn't match up at all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 10 minutes ago, MagicMT said: Yup those stats reflect a average passer but would you take Carr before these QBs? Mahomes / Allen / Jackson / Burrow / Herbert / Love / Stroud / Purdy / Goff / Stafford / Prescott / Cousins / Hurts / Rodgers / Tua / Lawrence / Richardson and then I'd argue Geno Smith, Kyler Murray and Baker Mayfield are 3 QBs I'd take before Carr if starting a team tomorrow. That's 20 QBs right there and that's not counting Caleb Williams and Jayden Daniels who I'd take before Carr 10 out of 10 times even if they never played a NFL down yet. That's a tough question because for this season I'd take Carr over several of those options. I just can't confidently take Cousins and Rodgers over Carr with both of them coming off Achilles injury's. Especially given their advanced age at the time of injury. No way I'd take Richardson over Carr for this season. He still a massive unknown as a passer and can't stay healthy as a runner. Lawrence regressed last season. Would obviously take Lawrence for the long haul, but for this season, I just am not sure what to make yet. I'm going Carr over Smith, Murray, and Mayfield at this point. Won't count Williams or Daniels until I see what they can do if we are talking this season. I've seen enough rookie QB's struggle and even outright bust over the years. In other words, for this season, I definitely could see Carr continuing to hover around that 15th range. Maybe slightly higher. Maybe slightly lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingram Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 23 minutes ago, MagicMT said: Yup those stats reflect a average passer but would you take Carr before these QBs? Mahomes / Allen / Jackson / Burrow / Herbert / Love / Stroud / Purdy / Goff / Stafford / Prescott / Cousins / Hurts / Rodgers / Tua / Lawrence / Richardson and then I'd argue Geno Smith, Kyler Murray and Baker Mayfield are 3 QBs I'd take before Carr if starting a team tomorrow. That's 20 QBs right there and that's not counting Caleb Williams and Jayden Daniels who I'd take before Carr 10 out of 10 times even if they never played a NFL down yet. Carr is Goff basically. Goff is just working with one of the best offensive minds in the league. Having Richardson above him is pretty laughable. So yeah...I'd have Carr right around 16-20 lol. Geno Smith, Jared Goff and Derek Carr are the exact same QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 17 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: Like Russell Wilson last year, Derek Carr's stats are mostly empty. The eye test just doesn't match up at all. Not quite. Carr was very good down the stretch in games that were very important in keeping our playoff hopes alive, which they were right up until the final week of the season. A better argument could be made that it took Carr some time to adjust to a new team, system, and players. In the final 6 games of the season he had 15 touchdown passes and 3 interceptions With a completion percentage of 74.4% While posting QB Ratings of: 105.5, 88.5, 134.8, 106.1, 111.1, and 145.5 We also went 4-2 in those games with 3 of those 6 games being against playoff teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingram Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, MagicMT said: -Carr just ain't a good QB, he's below middle of the road. More like 20-25 which isn't very impressive at the most important in the sport but okay, -WR is really good? I think Olave is good but you can't tell me Shaheed (who I like) is a good #2 (might become one but he's definitely not there yet) or that Perry is a good #3 compared to many other WR3 in the league right now. Any way you slice it they don't have a top 10 WR room (Dolphins, Vikings, 49ers, Eagles, Bengals, Seahawks, Rams, Lions, Raiders, Texans, Bucs, going to stop there) so how can outside the top 10 be "really good". We might have a different definition of what is pretty good. -The DL is not good. As you mentioned Jordan is cooked, Granderson is good but definitely not a top 15 DE in the league and then who are the other good edges on that roster? Chase Young is an absolute bust and there's a reason both Commanders & 49ers didn't want to resign him. And Breese is a young ascending player but still not a great unit and definitely bottom 3rd in the league. So a below average QB / average at best WR room / below average Dline. -Their OL is okay-good and I would rank them upper half of the league (10-15). -Their RB room is okay, don't know how adding Miller (who didn't do much as a rookie last year) with Kamara makes it "strong". -LB group is very good (top 10) -Secondary is very good as well (top 10) We might have a different perspective about the Saints roster and we probably don't see eye to eye with certain players or regarding other players in the league. Doing a deep dive personally I don't see a top half of the league roster and with their cap limitations I feel like the Saints are not in a good position as a team right now and they'll require a lot of work before going back to being SB contenders. Already touched on Carr in another post. WR is absolutely really good. Olave has top 15 WR upside, Shaheed in 15 games had 719 receiving yards as the #3 WR. He's going to be very good, especially with a good OC (hopefully). AT Perry is a nice depth piece, I already touched on the fact that the Saints need another guy to fill out the depth chart but the Saints top 2 WRs are both very talented. The DL should be much improved. Calling Chase Young an absolute bust is kind of a joke. A year after a torn ACL he had 7.5 sacks, guys typically take a full calendar year to be 100%. He's a significant upgrade over last seasons Cam Jordan. Kendre Miller looked insanely explosive in limited touches. I mean, a lot of your concerns are simply because you haven't watched the Saints. I think its a top 16 roster on paper, bad coaching has made it play worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingram Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Just now, tyler735 said: Not quite. Carr was very good down the stretch in games that were very important in keeping our playoff hopes alive, which they were right up until the final week of the season. A better argument could be made that it took Carr some time to adjust to a new team, system, and players. In the final 6 games of the season he had 15 touchdown passes and 3 interceptions With a completion percentage of 74.4% While posting QB Ratings of: 105.5, 88.5, 134.8, 106.1, 111.1, and 145.5 We also went 4-2 in those games with 3 of those 6 games being against playoff teams. Hating Carr is just the cool thing to do. Hell, even Saints fans hate him. He was significantly better later in the season when Pete Carmichael actually implemented some PA and motion into the offense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Y'all arguing about Carr and I'm still just waiting on Saints fans to educate me on how the cap works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr A W Niloc Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 3 hours ago, MagicMT said: -Carr just ain't a good QB, he's below middle of the road. More like 20-25 which isn't very impressive at the most important in the sport but okay, Close enough (T19th) but with a softer positional schedule this year. The O-Line will be a real problem though; Carr might do well to finish 25th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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