JonStark Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 11 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: It's interesting that many are considering Donald the GOAT DT when I've seen multiple offenses cut through a prime Donald and solid Rams defense like butter, scoring 40+ or even 50+ points multiple times. Coming from a Ravens fans who focuses more on the AFC, there were two games we played vs the Rams scored at will, he was invisible the whole game. It just didn't really feel like we were going against a force of nature, like a prime JJ Watt or Ray Lewis. Maybe that's the nature of the DT position, it can get schemed around. Just my anecdotal 2 cents. I'd love to see some plays of an offense cutting through a prime Donald if you want to share. It's really not his fault, especially playing the DT position, if he attracts 2-3 guys consistently and his teammates can't do their job. I'm sure Lewis and Watt, who played more premium positions, had games like that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jameson_Neat Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, seminoles1 said: That's why you have to compare how they performed against their peers, not compared to players who came 40-50 years later. Yes, there will always be context, but that goes both ways. Yeah, it'll never be an exact science, but that's the only way to compare them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, Soko said: You don’t see why dominating physical competition with greatly superior athleticism and size would be viewed as a positive? To each their own. But again, commenting on the general era talk, there’s no argument for Player X doing ABC vs smaller, weaker, slower guys being equally as impressive as Player Z doing ABC vs bigger, stronger, faster guys. On the basis of what? Hmmm I don't really understand how there isn't an argument there. Because Player Z is also bigger, stronger, and faster. If we assume that each generation of players becomes bigger, stronger, and faster, than what you should evaluate is the relative dominance of a player against their peers. I don't give any added bonus for Player Z dominating in an era with bigger strong faster players because he has the same attributes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 For me? I'm not so sure. But he's in my top 3 of guys I've seen play and remember playing. He's up there with wherever you put John Randle and Warren Sapp. Personally, I'd put him ahead of those two, but I wouldn't fight against anyone who feels differently regarding those three. I'm not old enough to remember those players from the 70's or prior. And I only vaguely remember the 80's. Late 80's, kind of. Donald was very, very special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluhartz Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 2 hours ago, seminoles1 said: Michael Jordan wouldn't be any better than DeMar DeRozan in today's NBA. He couldn't shoot 3s and wasn't used to the caliber of athlete and skill that is prevalent in the league now, so he can't be the GOAT. lol... that's hilarious... Jordan would average about 50 a game in todays NBA.. You can't touch people now... he averaged 30+ getting tackled in the lane... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 7 minutes ago, fluhartz said: lol... that's hilarious... Jordan would average about 50 a game in todays NBA.. You can't touch people now... he averaged 30+ getting tackled in the lane... Players who can't shoot 3s at all can't dominate like that. He would be zoned up and settle. He wouldn't know how to defend a player for more than 5 minutes who can actually dribble with both hands instead of only do 1 thing well on offense. Positionless basketball would overwhelm him. Can't hide on Jeff Hornacek and Hersey Hawkins anymore. There were a lot more fouls called and FTs attempted per game back in the day compared to today, so you can't say he'd just barrel in the lane and get calls. A slightly more athletic DeMar DeRozan. A really good player, but can't keep up with the true superstars. #notmygoatsinceheplayedbefore2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 47 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: Hmmm I don't really understand how there isn't an argument there. Because Player Z is also bigger, stronger, and faster. If we assume that each generation of players becomes bigger, stronger, and faster, than what you should evaluate is the relative dominance of a player against their peers. I don't give any added bonus for Player Z dominating in an era with bigger strong faster players because he has the same attributes. So it’s not fair to “blame” guys for when they were born, but it is fair to “blame” guys for being big and strong and fast, lmao. You think he was just born that way? I don’t think one or two generations of humans have just evolved on their own. The money + popularity has drawn in better athletes. Being even better than the better athletes is crazy. Being better than schmoes…is less so. “I’m not impressed by a big, strong guy being even bigger and stronger than other big, strong guys. No, what impresses me is a big, strong guy being bigger and stronger than guys weaker and slower.” Make it make sense… I would say let’s take all context into equation - both dominance of era, and competition. You, for some reason, think it’s smarter to ignore context… Edited March 18 by Soko 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddHatter Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 He is 100% one OF the GOAT's at the position, but I don't think I would crown him #1. He's a first ballot HOF'er and probably the best to do it in 3+ decades, but I wouldn't give him #1 over Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 43 minutes ago, seminoles1 said: Players who can't shoot 3s at all can't dominate like that. He would be zoned up and settle. He wouldn't know how to defend a player for more than 5 minutes who can actually dribble with both hands instead of only do 1 thing well on offense. Positionless basketball would overwhelm him. Can't hide on Jeff Hornacek and Hersey Hawkins anymore. There were a lot more fouls called and FTs attempted per game back in the day compared to today, so you can't say he'd just barrel in the lane and get calls. A slightly more athletic DeMar DeRozan. A really good player, but can't keep up with the true superstars. #notmygoatsinceheplayedbefore2010 Whatever Shai is doing he’ll do better. I know this is satire but Jordan would run any era. It was his mentality that made him a difference maker. Not to mention he had elite athletic attributes. Jordan would legit avg 40-50. He was dropping kids off at school at 40 against the best players in the “golden era” of the NBA. And he did that in one leg as his calf was shot. Now it all comes down to efficiency and that’s a different story. Dude was cold blooded. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 7 hours ago, Soko said: Yes, it’s fair. It has nothing to do with when they were born and everything to do with who they played with/against. Certain things are more impressive than others, it is what it is. This point only ever gets brought up in football (and baseball, tbh). Nobody who follows the NBA ever says Russell>Jordan because championships, or Wilt>Jordan because scoring. Everyone understands there’s a difference in era and competition. It’s not like the 2000s vs 2010s level difference in era, it’s an easily identifiable difference in the athletes and quality of competition. It’s not opinionated. It’s not penalizing old timers. It’s about giving credit to guys that are accomplishing similar physical feats vs superior physical competition. No, that’s not anyone’s fault, but it’s the truth. If you do that's fair, then yes you are blaming/penalizing people for when they are born an essentially saying "it is what it is" while throwing your hands up. Interesting you deem that fair, because again, what can the people profiled do about that? Nothing, but we'll call that fair? That's why I said dominance among peers is the closest we'll ever get. I don't see how that isn't "more fair" for everyone if we stop there. It also goes beyond simply athleticism of the era for the athletes. The rules as well. Field conditions. Playing gear. Coaching. Training/Nutrition. Many things. Are we penalizing every OL after 1977 that can block with their hands out, and arms extended??? I'm not going to hold that against Trent Williams. Or give a finger-wag to Davante Adams every time he scores a TD, because he didn't have to deal with being roughed up all over the field like Lance Alworth had to. Edited March 18 by TecmoSuperJoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, TecmoSuperJoe said: If you do that's fair, then yes you are blaming/penalizing people for when they are born an essentially saying "it is what it is" while throwing your hands up. Interesting you deem that fair, because again, what can the people profiled do about that? Nothing, but we'll call that fair? That's why I said dominance among peers is the closest we'll ever get. I don't see how that isn't "more fair" for everyone if we stop there. It has nothing to do with the age and everything to do with the competition. Am I supposed to say “Player X did ABC vs better competition, but let’s not think about that, because it’s not fair”? Is it not fair to judge Moss vs Rice, because Rice had Montana/Young the whole time? Isn't that penalizing Moss for something out of his control? Brady’s the GOAT, but Peyton never had a coach like Bill. So that’s not fair. If we’re comparing a one season sample size of Myles Garrett and TJ Watt, and the facts say Watt faced backup tackles for most of the season while Garrett faced mostly Pro Bowlers (imaginary), are we not allowed to take that into account because Watt couldn’t control who he was against? It’s not blaming anyone. It’s just looking at what you see. 1 hour ago, TecmoSuperJoe said: It also goes beyond simply athleticism of the era for the athletes. The rules as well. Field conditions. Playing gear. Coaching. Training/Nutrition. Many things. Are we penalizing every OL after 1977 that can block with their hands out, and arms extended??? I'm not going to hold that against Trent Williams. Or give a finger-wag to Davante Adams every time he scores a TD, because he didn't have to deal with being roughed up all over the field like Lance Alworth had to. It’s silly to not account for those things at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 8 minutes ago, Soko said: It has nothing to do with the age and everything to do with the competition. Am I supposed to say “Player X did ABC vs better competition, but let’s not think about that, because it’s not fair”? Is it not fair to judge Moss vs Rice, because Rice had Montana/Young the whole time? Isn't that penalizing Moss for something out of his control? Brady’s the GOAT, but Peyton never had a coach like Bill. So that’s not fair. If we’re comparing a one season sample size of Myles Garrett and TJ Watt, and the facts say Watt faced backup tackles for most of the season while Garrett faced mostly Pro Bowlers (imaginary), are we not allowed to take that into account because Watt couldn’t control who he was against? Literally nobody is arguing like this, which makes it seem like you don't actually understand the argument. If you are not capable of accurately reproducing the argument, you have little chance of successfully rebutting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 43 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: Literally nobody is arguing like this, which makes it seem like you don't actually understand the argument. If you are not capable of accurately reproducing the argument, you have little chance of successfully rebutting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 (edited) I just know that there isn’t any player that’s ever talked about in the light that Donald is talked about from past and present players. Sapp said it himself, Donald clears him and is far better than he was. That’s coming out of Sapps Mouth. Strahan and Howie long both said Donald is the best they’ve ever seen! That’s 2 HOF bookends and some of the best freakish athletes we’ve ever seen. Von Miller would arguably be the best defender if not for Donald in the 2010s and he called Donald the best player he’s ever played with.. I can go on and on. It’s how he forces and changes teams game plan on how to attack the Rams. While the stats are insane the off the paper stuff is in ever more insane. You add the stats, health and dominance and it’s not close. There was never a player that came close to touching Donald as the best DT in football. He was the best defender and player for a huge portion of his career. There were always debates about players and positions but never a clear dominant head over heels player like Donald. It’s crazy man, we might ever see a player like this again. He was my Lebron and it was a treat to watch. Edited March 19 by El Ramster 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/17/2024 at 10:49 AM, JonStark said: People really underestimate the difference in talent between the eras of Page/LT and the one AD played in. Donald is easily the GOAT DT, and probably the GOAT defensive player in general. Reggie White and Ed Reed still get the nod over Donald for me. But he's up there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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