WK2 GDT: PIT @ DEN

[7DnBrnc53]

 

[Dbrog24]

I know total yards aren't everything but just think it should be said. Bo had more than all other rookie qbs, Josh Allen, mahomes, burrow, Rodgers, stroud, and Stafford. There were like...7 QBs that had more this week.

Ya he didn't have a TD and did have 1 interception (why would you count the final pass?), but I don't see how anyone could say he didn't play significantly better than the first game. If you just look at the box you see he did hit almost every receiver for around 10 yards per catch too...

[Dbrog24]

30 minutes ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

 

Well I must say that's a new one. People blaming the refs for "keeping the Broncos in it when it should've been a blowout" hahaha...seriously these guys are something special.

Love how we had almost double the penalty yards and had less time of possession but sure...blame the refs for being in the Broncos pockets and the nfl being in the walmarts pockets after an 0-2 start

[AKRNA]

3 hours ago, germ-x said:

I don’t disagree that it’s early and I wasn’t a fan of the pick from the moment it was made, but fully understand there is a developmental side to this and I 100% don’t agree that he should be written off.

Nix has been awful.  The media and organization have sold how he’s started 61 games and how mature he is, he process information like Drew Brees, they knew after 16 snaps he was the guy, he has plenty of arm to make every throw, is pinpoint accurate, he can throw off of all platforms and he’s a good athlete.  The only part of that in 2 games that is true is he is a good athlete.  

My argument against Nix, even in the spring when he was drafted is outside of the athleticism he didn’t show any of the rest of that playing at Auburn in the SEC and which is the closest thing you can compare to the NFL.  

What's interesting is Stidham, winner of the SEC Newcomer of the year in his junior year, was the guy that showed Nix around campus and helped recruit him.

[jolly red giant]

When you have a rookie QB and your leading rusher has 25 yards - and it is your QB - then its not your QB, its your entire offence that sucks.

[French Fan]

8 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

He sucks. He was drafted a round too high and is very limited from a physical standout. He was also drafted to “fit Sean’s system” and Sean’s system is an antiquated embarrassment. 

Caleb Williams is bad but much better surrounded offensively in Chicago. Apart from his runs Jayden Daniels is not better. Manning 1st season was horrible.28 INT. John Elway 1 Td 8 int. Nix needs time, where is Sutton? Dulcich is not injured but he releases the football. Frankly, you have to be fair. Mistakes but it was predictable, against Seattle and Mike McDonald it was tough defensively (just look at the poor Ravens at the moment) and Pittsburg is always elite in defense.

[rcpbawler]

There's gotta be a tell for opposing defenses when we're running the ball or something, it's hard to believe we've been this awful getting push in the run game, especially considering the price tag of the OL. 

Pretty much said all I'll say on Nix. Passing numbers across the league are down and all 3 of the rookie QBs have looked mediocre (Daniels) to bad (Williams/Nix) so not overly concerned.

If theres a silver lining from this 0-2 start, the defense (outside of 3rd quarter against Seattle) has looked surprisingly good. May very well be a facade from facing one average and one really bad offense but definitely feel improved from last year, which isn't saying a lot I know. 

[lomaxgrUK]

The Defense played well 2nd half. I thought 1st half they were part of the problem, in truth. We got controlled on both sides of the ball, and the clock / 1st down dominance was in part due to our Defense. The JFM and Browning injuries were far, far, far from ideal.

PS2 got worked by Pickens. Got to hold my hands up - I didn't see that coming. He's a hell of a player.

I would say my thoughts seem to echo most of yours, in particular @BroncoBruin and @broncosfan_101 re: Nix. We all (well, most of us) know it's 2 games. We can't write a QB off after 2 games, especially when the calibre of Defense we've gone up against. We will not face Defenses that are as well coached as those every week. 

But what we're looking for are traits that project to long term success. We all know what these are for a QB in the NFL; accuracy, pocket presence, ability to throw from a muddied pocket, don't turn the ball over. Everything else is either a nice to have or maybe required to be elite, but that's not what we're talking here. The problem is, Nix is showing very little ability in EVERY ONE of those four things.

He's missing throws from clean pockets, he's constantly leaving clean pockets early, I don't think I have seen a single completion from a muddied pocket and he's turning the ball over. That's ... not good.

Again, I am not saying that he can't get better at these things. That said, there is (undeniably) a natural element to these things and it's very concerning that outside of his athleticism, I don't think there's one consistent trait for success that he's shown. I would say I've progressed from 'slightly concerned' to 'concerned' on the 'what's your outlook on Bo's career' scale.

I think what needs more discussion at this point is Sean Payton, frankly. I think yesterday was his worst showing as a Broncos Coach, which isn't a high bar if we're honest. My list of things that grated me:

- He's just behind the 8 ball with his playcalling. Really feels like he's playing to the Defense's tune, rather than changing the defensive narrative. Archeuleta explained this very eloquently on the commentary. It seems his way of trying to do that is trick plays, which worked once, but there's no longevity in that.

Where's the creativity in the screen game? Where's the play action? He doesn't trust Nix under Center (every time it's run), but there's like 3 QBs in the history of the league who played primarily out of Shotgun; it's daft.
- The time taken for play calls to come is ridiculous. That clip of Nix gesturing to hurry up was egregious. You aren't giving the kid a chance if you can't get him at the LOS in time. Two timeouts burned in the 2nd half ended this game
- At Payton's behest, we've got the most expensive OL in the league (I think) and he can't run the ball. So either he's got the wrong guys, or his plays suck. I think it's both. I will try and watch the run game plays this week if I can, but we just cannot run the ball
- The one time we do run the ball (for 16 yards), he doesn't give the guy another carry! We had 11 carries after that point, but apparently Badie wasn't worthy of another one, despite Javonte Williams looking like he's running through mud

I am sure there's more but that's my thoughts for now Offensively.

[paul-mac]

2 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

The Defense played well 2nd half. I thought 1st half they were part of the problem, in truth. We got controlled on both sides of the ball, and the clock / 1st down dominance was in part due to our Defense. The JFM and Browning injuries were far, far, far from ideal.

PS2 got worked by Pickens. Got to hold my hands up - I didn't see that coming. He's a hell of a player.

I would say my thoughts seem to echo most of yours, in particular @BroncoBruin and @broncosfan_101 re: Nix. We all (well, most of us) know it's 2 games. We can't write a QB off after 2 games, especially when the calibre of Defense we've gone up against. We will not face Defenses that are as well coached as those every week. 

But what we're looking for are traits that project to long term success. We all know what these are for a QB in the NFL; accuracy, pocket presence, ability to throw from a muddied pocket, don't turn the ball over. Everything else is either a nice to have or maybe required to be elite, but that's not what we're talking here. The problem is, Nix is showing very little ability in EVERY ONE of those four things.

He's missing throws from clean pockets, he's constantly leaving clean pockets early, I don't think I have seen a single completion from a muddied pocket and he's turning the ball over. That's ... not good.

Again, I am not saying that he can't get better at these things. That said, there is (undeniably) a natural element to these things and it's very concerning that outside of his athleticism, I don't think there's one consistent trait for success that he's shown. I would say I've progressed from 'slightly concerned' to 'concerned' on the 'what's your outlook on Bo's career' scale.

I think what needs more discussion at this point is Sean Payton, frankly. I think yesterday was his worst showing as a Broncos Coach, which isn't a high bar if we're honest. My list of things that grated me:

- He's just behind the 8 ball with his playcalling. Really feels like he's playing to the Defense's tune, rather than changing the defensive narrative. Archeuleta explained this very eloquently on the commentary. It seems his way of trying to do that is trick plays, which worked once, but there's no longevity in that.

Where's the creativity in the screen game? Where's the play action? He doesn't trust Nix under Center (every time it's run), but there's like 3 QBs in the history of the league who played primarily out of Shotgun; it's daft.
- The time taken for play calls to come is ridiculous. That clip of Nix gesturing to hurry up was egregious. You aren't giving the kid a chance if you can't get him at the LOS in time. Two timeouts burned in the 2nd half ended this game
- At Payton's behest, we've got the most expensive OL in the league (I think) and he can't run the ball. So either he's got the wrong guys, or his plays suck. I think it's both. I will try and watch the run game plays this week if I can, but we just cannot run the ball
- The one time we do run the ball (for 16 yards), he doesn't give the guy another carry! We had 11 carries after that point, but apparently Badie wasn't worthy of another one, despite Javonte Williams looking like he's running through mud

I am sure there's more but that's my thoughts for now Offensively.

I share your frustration with Payton, and he did an awful lot wrong yesterday. I really questioned the idea of spending draft picks on a head coach at the time and sadly it doesn’t look like my initial gut instinct will be proved incorrect on this one.

 

However, the one thing you don’t mention is IMO his most egregious mistake of the lot yesterday. 
 

Wil Lutz kicks a field goal with 1:54 left to make it a one possession game. At that point we only have one timeout left and we don’t even have the two-minute warning to stop the clock. We can only stop the clock once.

 

At this point there are three possible scenarios:

 

A) Kick the ball deep and you must force a quick 3 and out. Since you have one timeout, Pittsburgh can run the clock down twice between plays so you’d get the ball back with 20-30 seconds left. First down ends the game.

B) Kick an onside kick and fail. You’re giving the Steelers the ball around midfield. Again, you’ll get the ball back with 20-30 seconds left if you force a 3 and out (unless they nail a very long field goal). If they get a first down they can take a knee.

 

C) Go for an onside kick and succeed. At that point you have just under 2 minutes and 1 timeout to try and get to the end zone.

 

I have no idea what Sean Payton was even thinking by not going for the onside kick. Your chance of winning the game is probably like 2% if you kick it deep, 1% with a failed onside kick, but it would jump all the way up to like 25%-30% if you make the onside kick. At that point not trying an onside kick is an absolutely horrible decision by a very experienced coach.

[lomaxgrUK]

12 minutes ago, paul-mac said:

I share your frustration with Payton, and he did an awful lot wrong yesterday. I really questioned the idea of spending draft picks on a head coach at the time and sadly it doesn’t look like my initial gut instinct will be proved incorrect on this one.

 

However, the one thing you don’t mention is IMO his most egregious mistake of the lot yesterday. 
 

Wil Lutz kicks a field goal with 1:54 left to make it a one possession game. At that point we only have one timeout left and we don’t even have the two-minute warning to stop the clock. We can only stop the clock once.

 

At this point there are three possible scenarios:

 

A) Kick the ball deep and you must force a quick 3 and out. Since you have one timeout, Pittsburgh can run the clock down twice between plays so you’d get the ball back with 20-30 seconds left. First down ends the game.

B) Kick an onside kick and fail. You’re giving the Steelers the ball around midfield. Again, you’ll get the ball back with 20-30 seconds left if you force a 3 and out (unless they nail a very long field goal). If they get a first down they can take a knee.

 

C) Go for an onside kick and succeed. At that point you have just under 2 minutes and 1 timeout to try and get to the end zone.

 

I have no idea what Sean Payton was even thinking by not going for the onside kick. Your chance of winning the game is probably like 2% if you kick it deep, 1% with a failed onside kick, but it would jump all the way up to like 25%-30% if you make the onside kick. At that point not trying an onside kick is an absolutely horrible decision by a very experienced coach.

Hmm I think you've got option b wrong which changes everything. A failed onside kick puts Steelers in prime FG position, especially with the best 50+ yard Kicker in nfl history. 

The decision come down to what is more likely - a hail Mary or onside kick recovery. Neither are good.

I thought going for the TD was a better option on 4th down. Driving for a FG with little time is substantially easier than a TD.

I forgot to include the 4th and 6 he went for rather than the FG earlier in the game. That was so dumb.

[7DnBrnc53]

7 hours ago, Dbrog24 said:

Love how we had almost double the penalty yards and had less time of possession but sure...blame the refs for being in the Broncos pockets and the nfl being in the walmarts pockets after an 0-2 start

Well, to be fair, the Bronco O-line was getting away with holding again, especially McFlinchey. T.J. Watt was wondering what was going on. So, they have a point. 

Edited Monday at 11:39 AM by 7DnBrnc53

[Broncofan]

7 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

The Defense played well 2nd half. I thought 1st half they were part of the problem, in truth. We got controlled on both sides of the ball, and the clock / 1st down dominance was in part due to our Defense. The JFM and Browning injuries were far, far, far from ideal.

PS2 got worked by Pickens. Got to hold my hands up - I didn't see that coming. He's a hell of a player.

I would say my thoughts seem to echo most of yours, in particular @BroncoBruin and @broncosfan_101 re: Nix. We all (well, most of us) know it's 2 games. We can't write a QB off after 2 games, especially when the calibre of Defense we've gone up against. We will not face Defenses that are as well coached as those every week. 

But what we're looking for are traits that project to long term success. We all know what these are for a QB in the NFL; accuracy, pocket presence, ability to throw from a muddied pocket, don't turn the ball over. Everything else is either a nice to have or maybe required to be elite, but that's not what we're talking here. The problem is, Nix is showing very little ability in EVERY ONE of those four things.

He's missing throws from clean pockets, he's constantly leaving clean pockets early, I don't think I have seen a single completion from a muddied pocket and he's turning the ball over. That's ... not good.

Again, I am not saying that he can't get better at these things. That said, there is (undeniably) a natural element to these things and it's very concerning that outside of his athleticism, I don't think there's one consistent trait for success that he's shown. I would say I've progressed from 'slightly concerned' to 'concerned' on the 'what's your outlook on Bo's career' scale.

I think what needs more discussion at this point is Sean Payton, frankly. I think yesterday was his worst showing as a Broncos Coach, which isn't a high bar if we're honest. My list of things that grated me:

- He's just behind the 8 ball with his playcalling. Really feels like he's playing to the Defense's tune, rather than changing the defensive narrative. Archeuleta explained this very eloquently on the commentary. It seems his way of trying to do that is trick plays, which worked once, but there's no longevity in that.

Where's the creativity in the screen game? Where's the play action? He doesn't trust Nix under Center (every time it's run), but there's like 3 QBs in the history of the league who played primarily out of Shotgun; it's daft.
- The time taken for play calls to come is ridiculous. That clip of Nix gesturing to hurry up was egregious. You aren't giving the kid a chance if you can't get him at the LOS in time. Two timeouts burned in the 2nd half ended this game
- At Payton's behest, we've got the most expensive OL in the league (I think) and he can't run the ball. So either he's got the wrong guys, or his plays suck. I think it's both. I will try and watch the run game plays this week if I can, but we just cannot run the ball
- The one time we do run the ball (for 16 yards), he doesn't give the guy another carry! We had 11 carries after that point, but apparently Badie wasn't worthy of another one, despite Javonte Williams looking like he's running through mud

I am sure there's more but that's my thoughts for now Offensively.

You know my thoughts on Nix - the real concern long-term is that Nix lacks the physical tools to win games on his own.  And he certainly can't be trying hero plays with his arm skills.    Those IMO are pretty immutable given he's going to be 25 soon, barring a TB12-like (enhancements from his trainer also likely involved lol) increase in his arm talent.    That capped ceiling is why I question if he ever can anything more than a game manager as his ceiling.

The killer part with Nix that *could* get better is he's not seeing the field with eyes up when he moves, and he's still thinking he can make throws that you can't do in the NFL unless you're Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes.  Presumably the latter will get better, but those aforementioned limits to his game will still be there.    What was concerning was that he missed at least 5 open throws.   The Mims one was the most egregious by far.   

Still, Nix wasn't even close to the only major problem yesterday.  Once again, we saw guys with no separation.  Once again, we saw guys who couldn't make ppl miss. 

The real eye-opener was how poorly Sean Payton planned yesterday's game plan.    I'd take it one step further with his game plan:

-ZERO creativity in the play-sequencing on multiple drives.....run, run, pass.

-Always calling for the first read short of the sticks.

-DId not get Mims into the rotation until we were down 2 scores (and yes, Nix has to make that flag pattern throw to Mims , it was there).

-From a system perspective, what really worries me is that Payton's emphasis on big bodied WR, isn't working in today's NFL, because the speed disadvantage and total lack of YAC ability is letting D's just tee off on us, with ZERO fear of going deep.    I get Franklin was probably drafted with a view to address some of that, but we need to have a Jeudy-like threat on the field.   So, please, for the love of god, get Marvin Mims regular snaps, and if he's not the guy, at least you know.   Please stop with the ungodly 3-wide sets with tall guys who can't separate or make guys miss.

-His infatuation with Greg Dulcich and Adam Trautman is absolutely killing us.   Neither guy belongs on the top of any depth chart.   Dulcich doesn't even block well, and he's not signed for future years.  Why are we wasting our time with him?   Krull & Parham would offer 10x more in the pass game than Dulcich would.  

-The whole point to Payton was that he can mentor a young QB and get his used to his system.   Well, that didn't happen yesterday, Payton was almost as bad as Hackett in getting plays in (the one everyone is looking at on social media was horrible, but it happened at least 10x yesterday where the play couldn't get in on time).

 

NGL, I had nothing but respect for what Payton did with limited Russ last year.    But it was still tough to watch, and it was with the understanding he could do more with another QB.   But Payton's performance yesterday was an abomination - it wasn't just Nix.  Now, the supporting cast didn't help - but frankly, Payton green-lit the Jeudy trade, and drafting Mims/Franklin - so he owns the WR corps issues 100 percent. 

Again, 1 game shouldn't make us over-react - but the problems we've seen for 2 weeks are similar each game, and that's definitely cause for real concern. 

Sad part is that the D really showed out.   I'm worried though how we'll function in the run D without Franklin-Myers.  I hope he's OK, because if not, man it's going to get rough.

 

Edited Monday at 04:05 PM by Broncofan

[broncosfan_101]

Nix constantly breaking the huddle with 10-11 seconds left in the play clock is such a problem. The o-line hasn’t played well, but how much of that is getting to the LOS late and not having a chance to adjust assignments? Some of it seems like late calls in from Payton, some were like 4-5 seconds of Nix calling the play in the huddle. I don’t think I want Payton to ease up on the play calls, Nix needs real reps of what the coach expects going forward. But if he’s not gonna simplify the calls for his QB, Payton just HAS to get the plays in quicker. 

[Broncofan]

51 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said:

Nix constantly breaking the huddle with 10-11 seconds left in the play clock is such a problem. The o-line hasn’t played well, but how much of that is getting to the LOS late and not having a chance to adjust assignments? Some of it seems like late calls in from Payton, some were like 4-5 seconds of Nix calling the play in the huddle. I don’t think I want Payton to ease up on the play calls, Nix needs real reps of what the coach expects going forward. But if he’s not gonna simplify the calls for his QB, Payton just HAS to get the plays in quicker. 

That was Hackett-esque.  So tough to watch.

 

[lomaxgrUK]

10 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Where's the creativity in the screen game? Where's the play action? He doesn't trust Nix under Center (every time it's run)

I mean seriously, what are we doing here? I've never played a single snap of this sport, I'm watching the game on my phone for most of it and on one watch of the game i noticed this detail. 

So what the hell do you think multi million pound organisations who hire dozens of people to go through hours and hours of tape are going to do?

It's so embarrassing.