Random Packer News & Notes

[AlexGreen#20]

4 minutes ago, Lodestar said:

Can someone explain to me the theory behind "devaluing" inside linebackers? This is something I've been aware of for years but never really understood. It always seems to me that guys like Urlacher, Lewis, Thomas, Kuechly, Willis, Bowman, Wagner are among the biggest difference-makers in the NFL—certainly the DPOY awards bear that out, and the fact that they're seemingly always associated with great defenses. We've obviously never had anyone like that (not during my lifetime, I should say) so I've always thought adding a stud ILB/MLB would be amazing. And yet, other than Hawk, we've never really coveted it... why is that?

Earlier this offseason, I mentioned Roquan Smith in my list of elite defenders I'd love to see fall to us, and a number of posters quickly talked me out of it, saying an "off-the-ball" linebacker isn't what we need. And fair enough! I just don't understand is all. Someone please enlighten me. 

Your average NFL offense had 324 ypg last year. 112 came on the ground. 212 came through the air.

Against the pass, your ILBs are anywhere from your 9th-11th most important defender on the field behind your 3CBs, 2 edge rushers, 2 safeties, and UT. 

Against the run, your ILBs are anywhere from your 3rd to your 7th most important defender behind your 2 DTs and arguably your 2 edge rushers. 

Additionally, much in the way that an Offensive Line makes RBs, a Defensive Line makes Inside Linebackers. Even the best Inside Linebackers struggle to get off blocks. You have to keep them clean and even average ILBs look great when kept clean. The difference between good and bad inside linebackers is the ability to be in a spot quickly enough that blockers won't reach them, but even that is dependent on Defensive Lineman holding up Offensive Lineman.

The other issue with the position is that unlike Edge Rusher and DT which are explosion based positions, ILB is an instinct based position.

[squire12]

19 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Your average NFL offense had 324 ypg last year. 112 came on the ground. 212 came through the air.

Against the pass, your ILBs are anywhere from your 9th-11th most important defender on the field behind your 3CBs, 2 edge rushers, 2 safeties, and UT. 

Against the run, your ILBs are anywhere from your 3rd to your 7th most important defender behind your 2 DTs and arguably your 2 edge rushers. 

Additionally, much in the way that an Offensive Line makes RBs, a Defensive Line makes Inside Linebackers. Even the best Inside Linebackers struggle to get off blocks. You have to keep them clean and even average ILBs look great when kept clean. The difference between good and bad inside linebackers is the ability to be in a spot quickly enough that blockers won't reach them, but even that is dependent on Defensive Lineman holding up Offensive Lineman.

The other issue with the position is that unlike Edge Rusher and DT which are explosion based positions, ILB is an instinct based position.

Well stated.  

[Lodestar]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Your average NFL offense had 324 ypg last year. 112 came on the ground. 212 came through the air.

Against the pass, your ILBs are anywhere from your 9th-11th most important defender on the field behind your 3CBs, 2 edge rushers, 2 safeties, and UT. 

Against the run, your ILBs are anywhere from your 3rd to your 7th most important defender behind your 2 DTs and arguably your 2 edge rushers. 

Additionally, much in the way that an Offensive Line makes RBs, a Defensive Line makes Inside Linebackers. Even the best Inside Linebackers struggle to get off blocks. You have to keep them clean and even average ILBs look great when kept clean. The difference between good and bad inside linebackers is the ability to be in a spot quickly enough that blockers won't reach them, but even that is dependent on Defensive Lineman holding up Offensive Lineman.

The other issue with the position is that unlike Edge Rusher and DT which are explosion based positions, ILB is an instinct based position.

Thanks for the response!

So the All-Pro guys I mentioned—Urlacher, Lewis, Thomas, Kuechly, Willis, Bowman, Wagner—at best, you would say none of them is ever more than the 3rd-most important player on defense? Why is it that those guys have seemingly always been a part of great defenses? Are they overrated and/or piggybacking off the success of their DL?

[Gopackgonerd]

32 minutes ago, Lodestar said:

Thanks for the response!

So the All-Pro guys I mentioned—Urlacher, Lewis, Thomas, Kuechly, Willis, Bowman, Wagner—at best, you would say none of them is ever more than the 3rd-most important player on defense? Why is it that those guys have seemingly always been a part of great defenses? Are they overrated and/or piggybacking off the success of their DL?

I think all the guys whom you mentioned what make them special is they have Elite Coverage ability for a ILB. I think the ILB is higher valued when they can cover  those good  athletic receiving TEs and faster RBs. Now that it's a very heavy passing league, teams are using big  athletic Safeties (like we used Josh Jones at times last season) that can play the run and cover opposed to ILBs who are kinda limited to what they do.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Gopackgonerd

[AlexGreen#20]

41 minutes ago, Lodestar said:

Thanks for the response!

So the All-Pro guys I mentioned—Urlacher, Lewis, Thomas, Kuechly, Willis, Bowman, Wagner—at best, you would say none of them is ever more than the 3rd-most important player on defense? Why is it that those guys have seemingly always been a part of great defenses? Are they overrated and/or piggybacking off the success of their DL?

Urlacher was a unique freakish athlete and ended up in a perfect spot for his skillset. He was born to play ILB in a Tampa-2 defense where his speed was at a premium. Urlacher in a Cover-3 defense still was a good player in the box, but he wasn't a HOF talent. There aren't many teams that play a lot of Tampa-2 anymore. It's a defense that has primarily died out, but if you were to play that particular defense a lot of reps, then you could argue an ILB is a premium position.

Ray Lewis had some of the best instincts for the ILB position that I've ever seen, but he also benefited tremendously, especially later in his career, from playing behind Haloti Ngata and a very talented Ravens D-Line, plus his reputation carried him. Lewis was an absolute monster as a hitter in his prime, but as far as driving a defense, CBs and pass rushers need to be able to get it done.

I don't know which Thomas you're referring to specifically.

Kuechly much like Urlacher is an outstanding athlete (at everything that isn't straight line speed). He's flexible and he's got great instincts. Again though, good argument to be made Kawaan Short is the 3rd best DT in the league behind Watt and Donald, and Loutelelei is a damn good NT. 

Willis was only on elite defenses when he had Justin Smith in front of him and only got exceptional when they added Aldon Smith. It's not a coincidence that every ILB that was plugged in for the 49ers from Willis to Bowman to Borland looked like a superstar. Not saying Willis wasn't a damn good ILB, he was, but guys get put in spots to succeed. 

Wagner is a poor man's Willis and hell no was Wagner ever the 3rd most important guy on his defense. Sherman, Thomas, Bennett, Avril, and even Chancellor has an argument over Wagner. 

++++

One of the reasons that great defenses always seem to have great ILBs is that it's very hard to evaluate ILBs. Their role in run defense typically sees them buried at the bottom of the pile and their role in pass defense typically involves them dropping into hook/curl zones and then getting the ball thrown over their head or towards the sideline. When a defense is playing well as a unit, you typically credit the "leader" which is often the ILB. We create a catch 22 where good ILBs are being credit for good defenses when maybe good defenses are creating the perception of good ILBs. We saw with AJ Hawk, All pro BJ Raji=Pro Bowl AJ Hawk. Subpar BJ Raji=Skypilot ranting and raving.

[Lodestar]

8 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Urlacher was a unique freakish athlete and ended up in a perfect spot for his skillset. He was born to play ILB in a Tampa-2 defense where his speed was at a premium. Urlacher in a Cover-3 defense still was a good player in the box, but he wasn't a HOF talent. There aren't many teams that play a lot of Tampa-2 anymore. It's a defense that has primarily died out, but if you were to play that particular defense a lot of reps, then you could argue an ILB is a premium position.

Ray Lewis had some of the best instincts for the ILB position that I've ever seen, but he also benefited tremendously, especially later in his career, from playing behind Haloti Ngata and a very talented Ravens D-Line, plus his reputation carried him. Lewis was an absolute monster as a hitter in his prime, but as far as driving a defense, CBs and pass rushers need to be able to get it done.

I don't know which Thomas you're referring to specifically.

Kuechly much like Urlacher is an outstanding athlete (at everything that isn't straight line speed). He's flexible and he's got great instincts. Again though, good argument to be made Kawaan Short is the 3rd best DT in the league behind Watt and Donald, and Loutelelei is a damn good NT. 

Willis was only on elite defenses when he had Justin Smith in front of him and only got exceptional when they added Aldon Smith. It's not a coincidence that every ILB that was plugged in for the 49ers from Willis to Bowman to Borland looked like a superstar. Not saying Willis wasn't a damn good ILB, he was, but guys get put in spots to succeed. 

Wagner is a poor man's Willis and hell no was Wagner ever the 3rd most important guy on his defense. Sherman, Thomas, Bennett, Avril, and even Chancellor has an argument over Wagner. 

++++

One of the reasons that great defenses always seem to have great ILBs is that it's very hard to evaluate ILBs. Their role in run defense typically sees them buried at the bottom of the pile and their role in pass defense typically involves them dropping into hook/curl zones and then getting the ball thrown over their head or towards the sideline. When a defense is playing well as a unit, you typically credit the "leader" which is often the ILB. We create a catch 22 where good ILBs are being credit for good defenses when maybe good defenses are creating the perception of good ILBs. We saw with AJ Hawk, All pro BJ Raji=Pro Bowl AJ Hawk. Subpar BJ Raji=Skypilot ranting and raving.

Was referring to Zach Thomas. Again, thanks for the response, definitely makes a lot of sense.

[Shanedorf]

Packers are currently the number 4 seed in the NFC per Vegas Insiders , sitting at 12:1 to win the Superb Owl to be played in the ATL on Feb 3rd

Note:  that number does NOT include the big bump up from signing Davon House

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/odds/futures/

Eagles and Packers represent the only "likely" cold weather playoff locales for the NFC this year

ATL is currently 20:1 to win one in their own home dome

[Kepler]

15 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Superb Owl

God I hope GB wins this. 

[Leader]

 

[SpeightTheVillain]

1 hour ago, Leader said:

 

I know this is how it stands as of now, but moving forward - Not convinced Geronimo should be starting outside. Uneasy about Tramon in the slot, and not sold on Josh Jones being a LB in base. 

That Defensive alignment has 12 players haha so not sure whether that's a base or Nickel look he is going for. 

 

[Packer_ESP]

33 minutes ago, SpeightTheVillain said:

That Defensive alignment has 12 players haha

Maybe we'll crack top 15 this way

[AlexGreen#20]

5 hours ago, Leader said:

 

Like Tramon is going to be incinerated in the slot.

Edited April 14, 2018 by AlexGreen#20

[packfanfb]

Looks ready to cover Julio.

[Leader]

13 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Like Tramon is going to be incinerated in the slot.

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....its a run play

[Leader]

 

Response to question: What about a Mt Rushmore of Packers beat writers - that would be damn tough too.

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Leader