All Things Wrestling Thread

[PARROTHEAD]

LU was crazy good. Ill take LUs mid card over what WWE wants to push as their top guys any day. Mack and Cage perform on a whole different level for their weight. Pulling moves even the guys on 205 arnt trying. How on earth did Mack do that flip splash Kevin Owens does in the corner, spring off and land on his feet?

[PARROTHEAD]

4 hours ago, Troy Brown said:

What do you guys think of Josh Barnett trying to confront Jay White? Work or no? 

Work. Probably was a spur of the moment thing coming to the headset to stalk him though. Bought JR time to get himself situated and tended too. Then he went back to the desk.

[Troy Brown]

18 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

LU was crazy good. Ill take LUs mid card over what WWE wants to push as their top guys any day. Mack and Cage perform on a whole different level for their weight. Pulling moves even the guys on 205 arnt trying. How on earth did Mack do that flip splash Kevin Owens does in the corner, spring off and land on his feet?

I think most guys in WWE can perform at a high level anywhere if given the opportunity, they're just clearly handcuffed and overly produced. i think the best examples of this is look at how much better cody looks outside of wwe and how boring aj styles is in the wwe. 

i know what you're trying to say, i just disagree with the notion that wwe talents aren't as talented. 

[Dr LBC]

4 hours ago, Troy Brown said:

I think most guys in WWE can perform at a high level anywhere if given the opportunity, they're just clearly handcuffed and overly produced. i think the best examples of this is look at how much better cody looks outside of wwe and how boring aj styles is in the wwe. 

i know what you're trying to say, i just disagree with the notion that wwe talents aren't as talented. 

Yeah, I mean, I've been to the Temple and I've seen a lot of the guys in LU on indy shows... they're not quite as big as they're billed.  Mack is billed as 280, he's closer to 260, it just looks heavier because he's only 5'10" (I've stood right next to him, I'm 6'2" and I was visibly taller).  Realistically Owens is heavier than Mack is, he's just taller.  I mean, Pentagon is like 5'8" in reality; when I saw him against RVD, RVD dwarfed him and RVD's like right in between 5'11" and 6'0".Mil Muertes/Ricky Banderas looks huge because LU doesn't have many guys over 6'0" so when you get someone like him - who is smaller than Triple H - he looks enormous.  When he was working guys like James Storm (basically same size) and Abyss in TNA (he was Judas Mesias), he didn't look nearly so huge and his offense was pretty paltry.

You want "how is he that athletic/acrobatic for his size?" guys, wait till you see Keith Lee.  Also, fun fact about Brian Cage, he's the only guy other than Chris Kanyon to have portrayed Mortis (because Kanyon trained Cage and had a pretty huge influence on him).

But ultimately there's a distinct "WWE style" that's what is taught at the Development Center where they simply aren't having them throw the kind of high spots unless it makes sense for their character.  I mean hell, we've all seen and know how athletic Braun is and that he can throw dropkicks and the like, but that doesn't fit a giant character save for in very small doses so that it's more special when it happens.  Pretty sure Bubba Ray's even said it on his Sirius FM show that there were a lot of moves (even when he was massive) that he could do, but he knew it didn't make sense for him to do them often if at all because it makes it less special.

Little homework for you too, TB.  Go back and watch some of that early Bullet Club stuff, because you'll see that Karl Anderson can work circles around A LOT of guys.  It's kind of nuts.

[Dr LBC]

And another reason folks ought to check out MLW.  The World Champion is Shane Strickland (i.e. Killshot without the mask, which is actually a better character too).

[PARROTHEAD]

12 hours ago, Troy Brown said:

I think most guys in WWE can perform at a high level anywhere if given the opportunity, they're just clearly handcuffed and overly produced. i think the best examples of this is look at how much better cody looks outside of wwe and how boring aj styles is in the wwe. 

i know what you're trying to say, i just disagree with the notion that wwe talents aren't as talented. 

As a product to watch. LUs mids are showcased far above what the top in WWE is allowed to pull off. Mack last night a prime example. Im not even seeing it as Handcuffed anymore. More like completely shackled to a wall. Storytelling in that 3 way match was fantastic as well. Killshot Mack and SOH havent spoken a word all season on camera. Yet you could tell everything going on with them without a word needing to be said.

For Cody. He grew up in the biz. Knows how to work all things outside the ring. But in ring. I think all the WWE training, learning and years performing there have hurt him. He has all the athletic ability in the world. And he cant keep up with these guys with NJPW. And if I took Seth, threw him in that mix to wrestle guys like ZSJ Okada Omega Naito Slingblade and all. His weaknesses would be exposed as much as Codys have been for a couple years worth of matches. So they could be every bit as talented, but its just like college football.  Nick Saban has defensive guys looking their peak and draft worthy when theyre not. While a guy from Northern Illinois might of went to a small highschool, so not well recruited, went to a midmajor without the best coaching. But on the same platform, getting full time coaching and work in. Develops to become a yearly All Star. WWE guys coming through the WWE system are getting Midmajor coaching and development.

[Pastor Dillon]

wwe has been trash since Wrestlemania. It started with the greatest royal rumble being a glorified house show. Then Lesnar went completely MIA. Then Backlash was terrible with a Joe vs Roman main event that had guys from different brands in some kind of crazy one off feud. Then we had a pretty decent money in the bank match, in which the woman cashed in and the guy doesnt have a championship to cash in on. 

So now we have Extreme rules, which is usually a good pay per view because of the different gimmick matches....only most of the matches dont have gimmicks. 

Raw introduced an overused idea of a 6 pack challenge for the #1 contender, but it promised to be a match with good spots....only to drop it and for some reason make Lashley vs Reigns the main event despite Styles defending the WWE Championship and Rollins and Ziggler preparing to have possibly the match of the year for the IC belt. 

So what on earth is going on?

well maybe its time to revive an old idea and turn summer slam into a 16 man tourney for the universal title. Its only happened twice i beleive at Survivor series in 1999 and at Wrestlemania 4 where a massive tourney took place. Normally they have the tourney on tv and just do the final 4 at the event. Turn summer slam into the entire tourney. Give us 5 hours of some of the greatest matches we could ask for. None of this 2 minute squash matches. 

here is a card:

Rollins vs Ziggler
Rusev vs Miz
Daniel Bryon vs Kane
Lashley vs Joe

Reigns vs Mahal
Balor vs Corbin
Stroman vs Owens
Cena vs Nakamura

 

2nd round match ups

Rollins vs Miz
DB vs Lashley

Reigns vs Corbin
Owens(cheated to win) vs Cena

 

Semi Finals

Rollins vs DB
Reigns vs Cena

Styles vs Bray Wyatt for the WWE Title

Universal Championship
Rollins vs Reigns.......Stroman cashes in, making it a triple threat match

Rollins wins the Universal Title by pinning Reigns

The 1st round match ups all present some unique moments and some interesting build up. Rollins seals his legacy as MONDAY NIGHT ROLLINS by going 4 matches for the belt. 

 

Never going to happen. We will get some kind of something that will be disappointing. Weve been waiting on this reigns title run for years, got a short glimpse of it a few years back, so lets just get it over with. We could already be months into it by now. 

 

[PARROTHEAD]

6 hours ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Semi Finals

Rollins vs DB
Reigns vs Cena

Universal Championship
Rollins vs Reigns.......Stroman cashes in, making it a triple threat match

Never going to happen. We will get some kind of something that will be disappointing. Weve been waiting on this reigns title run for years, got a short glimpse of it a few years back, so lets just get it over with. We could already be months into it by now. 

 

No offense. But speak of disappointing. That semi with those 4 would take the cake. Vinces pets all crammed into the final 4.

All that is exactly why Raw breaks its lowest ratings and viewership on a yearly basis.

Seths title hold from Post mania to Nov 4th when he gave it up.

[Pastor Dillon]

7 hours ago, PARROTHEAD said:

No offense. But speak of disappointing. That semi with those 4 would take the cake. Vinces pets all crammed into the final 4.

All that is exactly why Raw breaks its lowest ratings and viewership on a yearly basis.

Seths title hold from Post mania to Nov 4th when he gave it up.

Heel Rollins vs current Rollins is vastly different. Rollins beating Reigns would generate such a huge pop from the crowd and people would be excited to finally have a universal champion 

[PARROTHEAD]

3 hours ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Heel Rollins vs current Rollins is vastly different. Rollins beating Reigns would generate such a huge pop from the crowd and people would be excited to finally have a universal champion 

But that collection in the Semis. Looks more like a desperate move to try and keep what fans they have. Rather than trying to attract fans by daring to try anything new and change from their set-in-stone ways.

Seth has a fanbase. I think he needs the IC title and to keep in the upper mids. But toss the title on him, and its a Wash, Rinse, Repeat thats done no favors for the WWE for years. Same guys, same recycled storylines. At a point which the NFL is looming over their shoulder, ready to bring the hammer on Mondays.

For Seth going forward. I say he needs to be on the cusp of winning it, but coming short numerous times. Build what seems a mountain in front of him to overcome, because he keeps falling short (kind of like Omegas build the past 2 years to becoming champion in some regards). Then at like Rumble 2020, let him finally win. And try to have him carry that momentum through Mania season. I wouldnt waste the opportunity and just toss it on him at this SS just because it might bring a big cheap pop for a week or 2. Cause thats all it would be doing. Just another bandaid stuck on WWEs overall problems.

[pollino14]

What a match! Callahan and OVE vs Pentagon, Fenix and Swann.

 

Swann goes for a frog splash and Jake Cryst jumps from the other ring post and hits a cutter on him mid air... 

[Dr LBC]

I cringe every time I hear Pentagon and Fenix called "The Lucha Bros" though (and Impact's not the only promotion that does it, they're the tag champs in MLW under the same name).  Also, if guys are going to take bookings on multiple televised promotions there's a responsibility (both of the wrestler and the bookers in said promotions) to present a consistent character.  That's, honestly, the thing that's the absolute best about Callihan - he's a heel wherever he goes.  Now, when we're talking Shane Strickland under his own name, with the Swerve character, that's different that when he's under the mask as Killshot (a different character).  Same with Jeff Cobb under his own name versus under the mask as Matanza Cueto (though Cobb seems to be moving in full-blown heel on all bases with these NJPW bookings; and his babyface Chosen Bros tag team with Matt Riddle isn't really used in any promotion that have TV deal). 

Pentagon, like I get it, he's not really a heel much anymore in LU, he's a mega-popular tweener who uses heel tactics (the arm-breaking) but is pretty evenhanded in his doing so against both face and heel targets.  Fenix as a heel (that's on MLW) while he's presented as a damn near white-meat babyface on both LU and Impact is stupid.  

[Troy Brown]

On 7/12/2018 at 3:09 AM, The LBC said:

Yeah, I mean, I've been to the Temple and I've seen a lot of the guys in LU on indy shows... they're not quite as big as they're billed.  Mack is billed as 280, he's closer to 260, it just looks heavier because he's only 5'10" (I've stood right next to him, I'm 6'2" and I was visibly taller).  Realistically Owens is heavier than Mack is, he's just taller.  I mean, Pentagon is like 5'8" in reality; when I saw him against RVD, RVD dwarfed him and RVD's like right in between 5'11" and 6'0".Mil Muertes/Ricky Banderas looks huge because LU doesn't have many guys over 6'0" so when you get someone like him - who is smaller than Triple H - he looks enormous.  When he was working guys like James Storm (basically same size) and Abyss in TNA (he was Judas Mesias), he didn't look nearly so huge and his offense was pretty paltry.

You want "how is he that athletic/acrobatic for his size?" guys, wait till you see Keith Lee.  Also, fun fact about Brian Cage, he's the only guy other than Chris Kanyon to have portrayed Mortis (because Kanyon trained Cage and had a pretty huge influence on him).

But ultimately there's a distinct "WWE style" that's what is taught at the Development Center where they simply aren't having them throw the kind of high spots unless it makes sense for their character.  I mean hell, we've all seen and know how athletic Braun is and that he can throw dropkicks and the like, but that doesn't fit a giant character save for in very small doses so that it's more special when it happens.  Pretty sure Bubba Ray's even said it on his Sirius FM show that there were a lot of moves (even when he was massive) that he could do, but he knew it didn't make sense for him to do them often if at all because it makes it less special.

Little homework for you too, TB.  Go back and watch some of that early Bullet Club stuff, because you'll see that Karl Anderson can work circles around A LOT of guys.  It's kind of nuts.

Yeah, that japanese style certainly doesn't lend itself to just anyone. Even in WWE, you can see a bit of that stuff bleed through their awfully vanilla matches with Anderson but as previously stated, it's all just so gd vanilla. maybe i'm old and jaded now. I am kinda interested in getting the njpw streaming service just to watch bullet club cause still i am amazed that finn balor was interesting. 

I've seen Keith Lee vs Cage in person, sup

Interesting topic, though... Who do you guys feel are great in-ring workers even within the awful WWE style? NXT excluded because that is clearly haitch capitalizing on the popularity of strong style 

For my money, I don't think there's a better wrestler in WWE than Seth Rollins who seems to be able to use more, or make it seem like he knows more than 3 moves 

Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn are both great... Dolph, Joe... I really enjoy Elias. I can't really think of anyone else excels with the handcuffs. AJ bores me, Shinsuke seems bored most of the time, Reigns is captain WWE match formula. Ambrose is probably the worst of everyone in this context. 

[pwny]

25 minutes ago, Troy Brown said:

I am kinda interested in getting the njpw streaming service just to watch bullet club cause still i am amazed that finn balor was interesting. 

On one hand, absolutely do this because Bullet Club has been some of the best work wrestling has ever had. But on the other hand, prepare to be angry beyond belief after you see what guys like Balor, Cody and Anderson can do and how terribly they have all been handled in WWE. 

EDIT: You said AJ bores you. So add him to this list too. 

[Dr LBC]

33 minutes ago, Troy Brown said:

Yeah, that japanese style certainly doesn't lend itself to just anyone. Even in WWE, you can see a bit of that stuff bleed through their awfully vanilla matches with Anderson but as previously stated, it's all just so gd vanilla. maybe i'm old and jaded now. I am kinda interested in getting the njpw streaming service just to watch bullet club cause still i am amazed that finn balor was interesting. 

I've seen Keith Lee vs Cage in person, sup

Interesting topic, though... Who do you guys feel are great in-ring workers even within the awful WWE style? NXT excluded because that is clearly haitch capitalizing on the popularity of strong style 

For my money, I don't think there's a better wrestler in WWE than Seth Rollins who seems to be able to use more, or make it seem like he knows more than 3 moves 

Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn are both great... Dolph, Joe... I really enjoy Elias. I can't really think of anyone else excels with the handcuffs. AJ bores me, Shinsuke seems bored most of the time, Reigns is captain WWE match formula. Ambrose is probably the worst of everyone in this context. 

Ambrose is weird and i think it is totally a case of his (out of character) personality and quirkiness.  He manages to be both ends of the spectrum.  I'm not sure I've seen a guy capable of doing exactly what you're describing while also capable of more than holding his own and stepping up his game when he's in there with a high-end worker (i.e. when he's in there with skilled hands, he's not getting carried - quite the opposite - but when he's in there with guys who would do better to be carried he goes vanilla in a hurry and looks flat out bored), except maybe Cena.  In a way, it kind of reminds me of WWE Vader (he had some awesome matches when he was in there with Shawn and other high-end workers and was definitely not being carried in those matches, but many of the big guys Vince loved that he got paired with wouldn't/couldn't work Vader's kind of match and Leon wasn't really allowed to force the issue).

Dolph's great at selling and putting the other guy over, I'm still not convinced he really all that great at getting himself over in his matches and, when he's not a heel, he really didn't do well getting (positive) heat in-ring as a babyface aside from when he was getting shined.

Harper is a massively underrated worker; it's hard not to compare him to what Kane was during the Attitude and Ruthless Aggression eras when he could work anyone and everyone.  He's never going to be a main eventer, but Xavier Woods is another underrated worker (even though I think he'd benefit from getting a little trimmer).

Shinsuke needs to work strong style and Vince (I don't know if he doesn't get it or just doesn't like it) isn't going to let him do that on the regular; similarly, it's one of the same things hurting Asuka right now.  Charlotte is definitely up there.  And, it's just been in very short glimpses because they just haven't been given the opportunity to show it but in very short glimpses due to injuries derailing pushes (which it looks like they may finally be in line for another one to close out this summer), The Revival are outstanding workers (especially Dawson - no surprise since he's also a coach).

Also, are we including the Cruiserweights?  Because Mustafa Ali is a nuts worker, especially for a light heavyweight; dude is probably one of the best sell artists on the entire roster (NXT guys included).  Hes doing the kind of selling that I wish and want Gargano to learn to do, because it would push Gargano's already great game up another rung.