Deshone Kizer Appreciation Thread

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, freakygeniuskid said:

How many of those have been his fault though? The pick against Indy was clearly a miscommunication with Williams where Kizer thought he was cutting out and he cut in. You have to throw that ball before the WR makes his break, so there's nothing to do there. Like, other than the two picks after he came back with a head issue against BALT, I think only one of his picks is definitely on him other than the fail mary at the end of Indy.

Also he is 21, his receivers are bad, the running game isn't doing him any favors and etc... I don't see why we should hold him accountable for anything. If the receivers were at the location he placed the ball every time and they caught every pass he'd be doing okay.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

6 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Also he is 21, his receivers are bad, the running game isn't doing him any favors and etc... I don't see why we should hold him accountable for anything. If the receivers were at the location he placed the ball every time and they caught every pass he'd be doing okay.

Are all those things not true?

It's not about him not being accountable, it's about having a reasonable expectation for his performance based on circumstances.

[Thomas5737]

3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Are all those things not true?

It's not about him not being accountable, it's about having a reasonable expectation for his performance based on circumstances.

They are true but still if you throw an interception in the end zone 5 yards behind your receiver and into the hands of a defender I don't care if you have a headache or are a rookie etc... you still screwed up and that is on the QB. It just seems odd that there are so many excuses blamed on the circumstances surrounding our worst ranked QB that it doesn't seem like some people want any of the blame attributed to Kizer. If Johnny Manziel threw that pick that was behind and off of Britt's hands I think there would have been a lot of the blame on Manziel for poor ball placement, as it should be, and less blame on Britt... even though he is garbage. I suppose it is just 'hope' keeping some from realizing that the QB has been overall poor so far even though he does have a nice shiny strong arm and good athletic ability.

As long as his accuracy gets better I would be confident in him going forward working through his mistakes and growing pains as he becomes our QBOTF. Consistent accuracy is sometimes hard to fix but it could happen. I'm not going to pretend he is good before he is good though. I'm hopeful but making excuses for poor performance in the meantime doesn't really seem to do any good except in my imagination.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

17 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

They are true but still if you throw an interception in the end zone 5 yards behind your receiver and into the hands of a defender I don't care if you have a headache or are a rookie etc... you still screwed up and that is on the QB. It just seems odd that there are so many excuses blamed on the circumstances surrounding our worst ranked QB that it doesn't seem like some people want any of the blame attributed to Kizer. If Johnny Manziel threw that pick that was behind and off of Britt's hands I think there would have been a lot of the blame on Manziel for poor ball placement, as it should be, and less blame on Britt... even though he is garbage. I suppose it is just 'hope' keeping some from realizing that the QB has been overall poor so far even though he does have a nice shiny strong arm and good athletic ability.

As long as his accuracy gets better I would be confident in him going forward working through his mistakes and growing pains as he becomes our QBOTF. Consistent accuracy is sometimes hard to fix but it could happen. I'm not going to pretend he is good before he is good though. I'm hopeful but making excuses for poor performance in the meantime doesn't really seem to do any good except in my imagination.

No, you're right there, there's no need to pretend he played great, but I do think he's played better than his stats indicate.

The pick intended for Higgins, the Watt pick, those are 100% on him. The Higgins throw is inexcusable IMO, he was open and did made the right read but threw an absolutely atrocious ball.

I'm not going to anoint him yet, but he DOES seem to have the physical attributes and traits needed to be a viable starter, he seems to be a bright kid and he doesn't dwell on a mistake or hang his head.  That's a pretty decent "lump of clay" to mold. And that's what has to happen with most young QB's, they need to be groomed and developed.  We'll have to see what kind of strides he makes this year.

I just think considering his age and all that, expectations need to be ratcheted down a bit.  With this stonehanded group of inexperienced receivers, his completion percentage is going to take a hit.  His constant testing of the defense down the field will also.  He's going to have more INT's than TD's most likely.  Folks seem to realize this but then become incredulous when it actually happens.

[brownie man]

Is there a team in the entire league with an worse set of outside weapons than us not named the Jets?

is there one team just one?

if there isn't give the 21 year old QB in his third game a break 

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

No, you're right there, there's no need to pretend he played great, but I do think he's played better than his stats indicate.

The pick intended for Higgins, the Watt pick, those are 100% on him. The Higgins throw is inexcusable IMO, he was open and did made the right read but threw an absolutely atrocious ball.

I'm not going to anoint him yet, but he DOES seem to have the physical attributes and traits needed to be a viable starter, he seems to be a bright kid and he doesn't dwell on a mistake or hang his head.  That's a pretty decent "lump of clay" to mold. And that's what has to happen with most young QB's, they need to be groomed and developed.  We'll have to see what kind of strides he makes this year.

I just think considering his age and all that, expectations need to be ratcheted down a bit.  With this stonehanded group of inexperienced receivers, his completion percentage is going to take a hit.  His constant testing of the defense down the field will also.  He's going to have more INT's than TD's most likely.  Folks seem to realize this but then become incredulous when it actually happens.

I agree with all of that. He will be a 60% completion guy most likely, like a Joe Flacco or Cam Newton. He probably won't have a 3-1 TD to INT ratio and that is ok too. Most of his mistakes and picks haven't been on the deep balls though so while he hasn't been consistently accurate going downfield he is at least as good as anyone we've had since DA doing it. 95% of you passes aren't deep balls though and those are the ones I care about. Hopefully when you go deep you do it because a WR separates or it's 3rd and long and a pick is about as good as a punt. I just need to see better accuracy on the short and intermediate stuff before I fall in love.

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, brownie man said:

Is there a team in the entire league with an worse set of outside weapons than us not named the Jets?

is there one team just one?

if there isn't give the 21 year old QB in his third game a break 

How would we know how good Higgins or Njoku or Leslie or anyone outside of Britt really until we get consistently good QB play? We can write off our rookie receivers as bad but not the rookie QB? Their mistakes are inexcusable but his aren't?

[matt27j]

Double edged sword. Can't get consistently good QB play if guys are dropping passes and committing penalties which put you in 3rd and longs. Everybody has improvements to make and they are doing so game by game. The key word is consistency. The has been moving, scoring positions, just need to reduce the self inflicted wounds to be more consistent and efficient. 

[FGK]

2 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

How would we know how good Higgins or Njoku or Leslie or anyone outside of Britt really until we get consistently good QB play? We can write off our rookie receivers as bad but not the rookie QB? Their mistakes are inexcusable but his aren't?

I feel like your being ornery just for the sake of being ornery.

If the QB throws a pass and the WR runs the wrong route, we can't know if the throw would've been good if the guy ran the right route. But if the QB throws a good ball and the WR just drops it, that's purely on the WR. You have to judge individual plays rather than just using blanket preconceptions. Like LGB said, the Watt and Higgins picks were 100% Kizer. And I guess you can blame the migraine picks on him too, though my coaching experience leads me to think that those should at least have an asterisk. But three of his picks so far (Off Johnson's hands, Britt's hands, wrong route by Williams) aren't Kizer's fault (as I pointed out before, if the Williams pick was thrown AFTER he came out of his break then it would be Kizer's fault, but as it was a pre-break throw, there's no way for him to avoid it.)

In general, he's been okay but not great so far. I think he will get better long term, but I can't be sure. I'm just saying that you can't just say every bad play is his pick, or that every bad play is the supporting cast's fault, you have to judge individually.

[Thomas5737]

24 minutes ago, freakygeniuskid said:

I feel like your being ornery just for the sake of being ornery.

If the QB throws a pass and the WR runs the wrong route, we can't know if the throw would've been good if the guy ran the right route. But if the QB throws a good ball and the WR just drops it, that's purely on the WR. You have to judge individual plays rather than just using blanket preconceptions. Like LGB said, the Watt and Higgins picks were 100% Kizer. And I guess you can blame the migraine picks on him too, though my coaching experience leads me to think that those should at least have an asterisk. But three of his picks so far (Off Johnson's hands, Britt's hands, wrong route by Williams) aren't Kizer's fault (as I pointed out before, if the Williams pick was thrown AFTER he came out of his break then it would be Kizer's fault, but as it was a pre-break throw, there's no way for him to avoid it.)

In general, he's been okay but not great so far. I think he will get better long term, but I can't be sure. I'm just saying that you can't just say every bad play is his pick, or that every bad play is the supporting cast's fault, you have to judge individually.

Any time I see anyone claiming that the pick of Britt's hands wasn't Kizer's fault, and I read Mind's novel, I just think they are trying way to hard to justify the blame going to someone other than the QB. If I make that throw I raise my hand in the air as the QB and take 100% blame because I know if I throw behind a receiver who is running from right to left there is very little chance that he will be able to make a play on the ball. Britt has been terrible and I would love to find a way to believe that the pick was on him but it wasn't. If that was any other QB and any other WR we'd all laugh that we were blaming the WR.

[brownie man]

3 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

How would we know how good Higgins or Njoku or Leslie or anyone outside of Britt really until we get consistently good QB play? We can write off our rookie receivers as bad but not the rookie QB? Their mistakes are inexcusable but his aren't?

If Higgins and Leslie were worth anything they wouldn't had cleared waivers. No team wanted them. 

Also the other guys got an opportunity last year and didn't produce. And you can't give them a cop out because they were rookies because if so you'd have to give Kizer the rookie a cop out as well. 

 

[candyman93]

I firmly believe that Kizer is making mistakes. However, none of his wide receivers will be in the NFL in 2-3 years.

[Kiwibrown]

29 minutes ago, brownie man said:

If Higgins and Leslie were worth anything they wouldn't had cleared waivers. No team wanted them. 

Also the other guys got an opportunity last year and didn't produce. And you can't give them a cop out because they were rookies because if so you'd have to give Kizer the rookie a cop out as well. 

 

I wouldn't count Leslie out, he has 4.4 speed and can clearly catch. I think he could be a decent role player. 25-30 catches per season.
I want to see more of Kasen Williams, I think he could be another good role player. I think we need either Gordon back or to draft another WR in the first round. 

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, brownie man said:

If Higgins and Leslie were worth anything they wouldn't had cleared waivers. No team wanted them. 

Also the other guys got an opportunity last year and didn't produce. And you can't give them a cop out because they were rookies because if so you'd have to give Kizer the rookie a cop out as well. 

 

I haven't been impressed with any of our receivers really, they haven't helped anything but I don't think they should be used as an excuse for the QB's individual play. Yeah they may not be helping our team win and they have dropped passes which we know about and we wouldn't blame those failed throws on Kizer but you can't just blanket blame them overall for Kizer's play. Same with the running game, things that are out of Kizer's control we won't blame on Kizer but also we can't just say that is the reason he always has 3rd and longs and why he fails.

I did enjoy seeing Kizer take snaps from under center to help the running game last week and I think we need to continue to do at least early in games or while we are still in games. I understand that probably isn't where he is most comfortable nor many QBs for that matter but with Crowell as our lead RB asking him to go off tackle from a shotgun handoff is just setting up the running game to fail. The offense just seems like a hodgepodge of players with different strengths which don't match the strengths of others on the team. We have a 1 cut RB with a finesse offensive line and a QB looking downfield without athletes on the outside to make it successful. None of that is Kizer's fault, I'd blame that mostly on the coaching philosophy or FO inability to build an offense that blends. Still, something has to happen for us to be able to win now and in the future and Kizer needs to show a lot of improvement along with many others on the team.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Any time I see anyone claiming that the pick of Britt's hands wasn't Kizer's fault, and I read Mind's novel, I just think they are trying way to hard to justify the blame going to someone other than the QB. If I make that throw I raise my hand in the air as the QB and take 100% blame because I know if I throw behind a receiver who is running from right to left there is very little chance that he will be able to make a play on the ball. Britt has been terrible and I would love to find a way to believe that the pick was on him but it wasn't. If that was any other QB and any other WR we'd all laugh that we were blaming the WR.

I certainly wouldn't.

IMO if a ball hits both hands of a receiver he "takes ownership" of that pass. That's any qb and any WR.

It wasn't a great throw by any means, but it Kenny Britt is being paid 8 million per year to do more than make catches that hit him between the numbers.