Vikings extend Danielle Hunter

[skywindO2]

10 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

Why is that? 

For me personally, I remember how bad our receivers were just a few years ago and I'm not okay with just letting good ones walk. 

Remember going into the 2015 season and pretending to be excited about starting Charles Johnson? Let's not do that again.

[JBURGE]

11 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

On 6/27/2018 at 3:56 PM, JBURGE25 said:

I would go with Diggs over Barr 

Why is that? 

Because the Vikings have like 5 contracts that will average around 13m come 2021 on defense already. You guys have Mike Zimmer, let him coach some other guys up to play around the core pieces. I think at this point Barr is probably at the highest the 5th most valuyable player on your defense (behind Harrison, RHodes, Griffen, and Linval)

[Krauser]

18 minutes ago, JBURGE25 said:

Because the Vikings have like 5 contracts that will average around 13m come 2021 on defense already. 

It’s actually 6 long term $10M+ AAV contracts on the Vikings defense: Griffen, Joseph, Hunter, Kendricks, Smith and Rhodes. Barr would be the 7th.  

Three of those guys will be over 30 in 2021 (Griffen 34, Joseph 33, Smith 31) and will likely be asked to rework deals if their production and/or usage drops off. Griffen and Joseph’s deals in particular have nearly zero dead money ($1.2M for Joseph in 2021, $400K for Griffen), so they’re effectively team option contracts by that point. 

Long-term second contracts for homegrown players should be the backbone of any team, and for the Vikings that’s currently only Thielen and Rudolph on offense (Reiff, Remmers and Cousins are second contract players brought over as UFAs), and all 6 of the players mentioned above on defense except former UFA Joseph (Griffen and Joseph have 3rd contracts signed but are currently playing the last year of their 2014 second contracts). 

Barr and Diggs were both drafted/developed by the Vikings, and are both among the best players in the league at their positions. Retaining them through their prime years (Barr just turned 26, Diggs turns 25 in November) is important. The Vikings can afford to keep both, and should.

If they come to a cap crunch in 2021 or whenever, it’ll be time to restructure or release some of the older guys. But they shouldn’t walk away from prime age, top talent homegrown players because of what might happen with the cap a few years down the road. 

[JBURGE]

11 minutes ago, Krauser said:

It’s actually 6 long term $10M+ AAV contracts on the Vikings defense: Griffen, Joseph, Hunter, Kendricks, Smith and Rhodes. Barr would be the 7th.  

Three of those guys will be over 30 in 2021 (Griffen 34, Joseph 33, Smith 31) and will likely be asked to rework deals if their production and/or usage drops off. Griffen and Joseph’s deals in particular have nearly zero dead money ($1.2M for Joseph in 2021, $400K for Griffen), so they’re effectively team option contracts by that point. 

Long-term second contracts for homegrown players should be the backbone of any team, and for the Vikings that’s currently only Thielen and Rudolph on offense (Reiff, Remmers and Cousins are second contract players brought over as UFAs), and all 6 of the players mentioned above on defense except former UFA Joseph (Griffen and Joseph have 3rd contracts signed but are currently playing the last year of their 2014 second contracts). 

Barr and Diggs were both drafted/developed by the Vikings, and are both among the best players in the league at their positions. Retaining them through their prime years (Barr just turned 26, Diggs turns 25 in November) is important. The Vikings can afford to keep both, and should.

If they come to a cap crunch in 2021 or whenever, it’ll be time to restructure or release some of the older guys. But they shouldn’t walk away from prime age, top talent homegrown players because of what might happen with the cap a few years down the road. 

Great post. I don't disagree with you, I just remember looking at everything before the draft and not being sure how the Vikings could afford to extend all of Kendricks, Barr, Diggs, and Hunter.

Honestly if I had to guess, I would have thought Diggs would have been the first one the Vikings wanted to extend, but I guess Diggs wants to try to play a season healthy and get paid more. Smart decision when as a 5th round pick he could have taken the signing bonus this off-season. 

[Krauser]

1 hour ago, JBURGE25 said:

Honestly if I had to guess, I would have thought Diggs would have been the first one the Vikings wanted to extend, but I guess Diggs wants to try to play a season healthy and get paid more. 

Offseason isn’t over yet, they may still get a deal done. 

If Diggs signs an extension a year this summer, I think he gets a deal similar to Davante Adams, ~$14M AAV. He’s comparable to the WRs who got big deals this offseason (Watkins, Landry, Robinson and Adams), and might do a little better than that as a UFA next year, but there’s some value in taking a slightly lower deal a year early, as insurance against injury and in order to finally get a big payday (Diggs career earnings over 3 years as a late round pick are only $1.8M, which is 10% of what Adams got as a signing bonus). 

The Vikings shouldn’t bother trying to lowball his deal (anything under $12M based on the the current market). Diggs has already played 3 different positions (2015 split end, 2016 slot, 2017 flanker), with 3 different QBs and under 2 different OCs, mainly on a run-first team, and he’s been productive and looked great throughout. He’s a star in the making, already arguably a top 10-15 player at one of the most valuable positions in the game, and is absolutely necessary to retain if they want to maximize the return from the investment they made in Cousins.

I hope the Vikings don’t let him get to the tampering period, where they’ll be vulnerable to a blockbuster market-resetting offer (Wallace to the Dolphins, Vernon to the Giants). If he won’t sign, I’d have no hesitation in franchise tagging him for 2019 and negotiating from there.

From the Vikings side of the table, one concern with giving Diggs an expensive extension this summer is that Thielen is just starting his ridiculously cheap 3 year extension, $19M/3 (signed last year but only kicks in in 2018). Thielen was the primary slot WR last year, which usually holds contract costs down (Tate, Baldwin, etc), but he’s still woefully underpaid. The Vikings made Thielen’s career in the first place, so I can’t imagine he’ll hold out or complain publically, but it’d be weird to have 2 very comparable players in terms of value to the team with one making triple what the other gets.

So the Vikings may prefer to let negotiations with Diggs ride until next off season, when they could extend him (probably $15M+ by that point if he stays healthy and shows good chemistry with Cousins) and at the same time give Thielen an early extension with 2 years remaining on his current deal — this is what they did for Griffen and Joseph last year, extended them 2 years early, giving them more guaranteed and up front money and making their past-30-year-old contracts essentially a series of team options. Thielen could get a nice topline ($60M/4) with some guaranteed and up front money (maybe $10M in hand) given as roster bonuses and signing bonus, and the Vikings cap numbers would only suffer modestly (maybe $4M per year in 2019 and 2020).

As for Barr, the speculation is that he wants to have a chance to get paid as an edge rusher, not an off-ball OLB. He’s been effective as a blitzer but didn’t really show much from DE when the Vikings tried him there as a rookie, and hasn’t come back to it since 2014. I’m sure the Vikings are willing to offer him a market price deal for a top 4-3 OLB (say $11M/yr), but if Barr thinks he can get $14M somewhere, he might not be wanting to commit to that.

Barr was lining up at DE sometimes in minicamp, so the speculation is that Zimmer’s going to use him more as a rotational pass rusher (and play who beside Kendricks in nickel, I have no idea, their depth at SLB is Eric Wilson, a UDFA from last year). Barr might want to let his contract go until the tampering period next year, see what kind of offers he gets, and then ask the Vikings to match. Tagging him would be prohibitive as the price for LBs is set by 3-4 edge rushers. 

The Vikings used a similar approach for Loadholt (2013) and Griffen (2014), both times agreeing to long term extensions a day or so before the UFA period officially opened. The Bears tried to sign Loadholt and the Broncos made an offer on Griffen (settling for Ware), those deals shaped the contracts with the Vikings. Barr’s very good at his role in Zimmer’s defense but he’s probably no more valuable to any other team in that role (because Zimmer asks his LBs to line up in the A gaps and still cover the flats), so if Barr’s best offer is Burfict or Telvin Smith territory, I’m sure Minnesota would match it. On the other hand if a 3-4 team thinks he can be another Ware or Matthews and they’re buying him at a relative discount because he’s relatively unproven, the Vikings would have to let him go.  

 

[JBURGE]

8 minutes ago, Krauser said:

2 hours ago, JBURGE25 said:

Honestly if I had to guess, I would have thought Diggs would have been the first one the Vikings wanted to extend, but I guess Diggs wants to try to play a season healthy and get paid more. 

Offseason isn’t over yet, they may still get a deal done. 

If Diggs signs an extension a year this summer, I think he gets a deal similar to Davante Adams, ~$14M AAV. He’s comparable to the WRs who got big deals this offseason (Watkins, Landry, Robinson and Adams), and might do a little better than that as a UFA next year, but there’s some value in taking a slightly lower deal a year early, as insurance against injury and in order to finally get a big payday (Diggs career earnings over 3 years as a late round pick are only $1.8M, which is 10% of what Adams got as a signing bonus). 

The Vikings shouldn’t bother trying to lowball his deal (anything under $12M based on the the current market). Diggs has already played 3 different positions (2015 split end, 2016 slot, 2017 flanker), with 3 different QBs and under 2 different OCs, mainly on a run-first team, and he’s been productive and looked great throughout. He’s a star in the making, already arguably a top 10-15 player at one of the most valuable positions in the game, and is absolutely necessary to retain if they want to maximize the return from the investment they made in Cousins.

I hope the Vikings don’t let him get to the tampering period, where they’ll be vulnerable to a blockbuster market-resetting offer (Wallace to the Dolphins, Vernon to the Giants). If he won’t sign, I’d have no hesitation in franchise tagging him for 2019 and negotiating from there.

From the Vikings side of the table, one concern with giving Diggs an expensive extension this summer is that Thielen is just starting his ridiculously cheap 3 year extension, $19M/3 (signed last year but only kicks in in 2018). Thielen was the primary slot WR last year, which usually holds contract costs down (Tate, Baldwin, etc), but he’s still woefully underpaid. The Vikings made Thielen’s career in the first place, so I can’t imagine he’ll hold out or complain publically, but it’d be weird to have 2 very comparable players in terms of value to the team with one making triple what the other gets.

So the Vikings may prefer to let negotiations with Diggs ride until next off season, when they could extend him (probably $15M+ by that point if he stays healthy and shows good chemistry with Cousins) and at the same time give Thielen an early extension with 2 years remaining on his current deal — this is what they did for Griffen and Joseph last year, extended them 2 years early, giving them more guaranteed and up front money and making their past-30-year-old contracts essentially a series of team options. Thielen could get a nice topline ($60M/4) with some guaranteed and up front money (maybe $10M in hand) given as roster bonuses and signing bonus, and the Vikings cap numbers would only suffer modestly (maybe $4M per year in 2019 and 2020).

As for Barr, the speculation is that he wants to have a chance to get paid as an edge rusher, not an off-ball OLB. He’s been effective as a blitzer but didn’t really show much from DE when the Vikings tried him there as a rookie, and hasn’t come back to it since 2014. I’m sure the Vikings are willing to offer him a market price deal for a top 4-3 OLB (say $11M/yr), but if Barr thinks he can get $14M somewhere, he might not be wanting to commit to that.

Barr was lining up at DE sometimes in minicamp, so the speculation is that Zimmer’s going to use him more as a rotational pass rusher (and play who beside Kendricks in nickel, I have no idea, their depth at SLB is Eric Wilson, a UDFA from last year). Barr might want to let his contract go until the tampering period next year, see what kind of offers he gets, and then ask the Vikings to match. Tagging him would be prohibitive as the price for LBs is set by 3-4 edge rushers. 

The Vikings used a similar approach for Loadholt (2013) and Griffen (2014), both times agreeing to long term extensions a day or so before the UFA period officially opened. The Bears tried to sign Loadholt and the Broncos made an offer on Griffen (settling for Ware), those deals shaped the contracts with the Vikings. Barr’s very good at his role in Zimmer’s defense but he’s probably no more valuable to any other team in that role (because Zimmer asks his LBs to line up in the A gaps and still cover the flats), so if Barr’s best offer is Burfict or Telvin Smith territory, I’m sure Minnesota would match it. On the other hand if a 3-4 team thinks he can be another Ware or Matthews and they’re buying him at a relative discount because he’s relatively unproven, the Vikings would have to let him go.  

 

Please don't respond to me with posts this long when I'm at work, it's inconsiderate

I did read the first bit but I'll read the rest on lunch.  Yes he should and I'm sure will get paid similar to what Allen Robinson got, but I wouldn't want to be the team that gives him that contract when Diggs has had injury trouble every single year. Make the guarantees low. That's why I think Diggs is going to play the year out and increase the guaranteed $. Also don't want to hear that he's played 3 different positions... it's the reality in the NFL now that WR1s play every spot on the offense. 

[Krauser]

2 hours ago, JBURGE25 said:

Also don't want to hear that he's played 3 different positions... it's the reality in the NFL now that WR1s play every spot on the offense. 

Fair enough, but he was used in 3 different roles.

2015: played as the X in Norv's offense (with Teddy), saw a lot of press coverage from CB1s (got shut down against Sherman and Peterson for one thing). Hardly played in the slot (15% of his routes from the slot that year, Jennings was the main slot WR and flanker). Yards per catch 13.8, catch percentage 61.9%. 

2016: mainly a slot/possession receiver for the dink-and-dunk Bradford-behind-terrible-OL offense (routes from slot 63%). Yards per catch dropped to 10.8, catch percentage jumped to 75%.

2017: mostly played as the Z and used as the main deep threat in Shurmur's offense (with Keenum), stayed outside in most 3WR situations (24% routes from slot, compare to Thielen 51%). Yards per catch back up to 13.3, catch percentage 67.4%.

2018: minicamp, they're still using Treadwell (at X) in 3WR sets, which means Thielen is the main slot, which means Diggs will probably be staying in the same role as last year. Kendall Wright has replaced Jarius Wright as the WR4, mainly a slot/flanker player, but it looks like they want to keep using Thielen where he was so successful in 2017, and give Treadwell one more chance to improve. 

[Magnus-Viktor]

I actually have reservations on this deal.  I suspected in his first 2 years when he was a backup/situational pass rusher, that it was his ideal situation.  In year 3, when he was a starter, his production went way down.  This seems like a bit of a gamble to me.  You don't pay a guy that kind of money for 7 sacks (or for a guy who won't start but come off the bench as a situational pass rusher for 12.5 sacks).  They're clearly gambling that he'll bounce back to that 12.5 sacks from his 2nd season when he was just a situational pass rusher.  Don't get me wrong here:  Hunter checks all the boxes for me, but that's a lot of money for unproven production as a starter.  

I'd much rather spend the money on Hunter than Barr or Diggs, 2 guys who are up and down and can't stay healthy.  Waynes I wouldn't pay much at all.  

[ILoveTheVikings]

On 6/27/2018 at 5:07 PM, footbull3196 said:

If Hunter had taken another step forward after his 12.5 sack season, I'd be more inclined to buy into his "huge upside".  However, he stagnated quite a bit, and I have reason to believe he might just be what he is right now.  It makes sense why people think he's got potential 

I'm not sure I see all 3 guys coming back.  I think they just marked the beginning of the end for Barr in Minnesota, and I'm not happy about that since he's proven himself a bit more 

How many sacks did you predict him to have last year?  If it was anywhere near double digits, you were way off

I expect Griffen to lead the team in sacks because that's what he's there for

Dude, virtually ALL of the great pass rushers in this league were up and down to begin their careers before they consistently turned into elite players...

 

It's an absolutely ludicrous take to think that a players sacks have to keep going up each and every year from his rookie year in order to justify him as an elite talent. No one does that. 

[ILoveTheVikings]

On 6/28/2018 at 9:29 PM, Sugashane said:

 

With Cousins being there I think a part of the allure was that Zimmer will get talent to produce on defense, MIN isn't going to flip their defense to trash like the Emery/Trestman led Bears did. But I imagine Cousins, with so many suitors, wanted to keep weapons at his disposal, and Diggs is certainly a talent that would be easy to miss. He was likely a big part of the signing.

 

Just my idea though, I have literally no reference to support that.

This. Diggs isn't going anywhere.

[vikingsrule]

My order of preference: Stefon Diggs, Sheldon Richardson (making assumptions here that he is a great add), then Anthony Barr. I like Barr a lot and he certainly is going to be hard to replace, I prefer having two top notch WRs for Cousins and a high end 3 tech is invaluable (again making an assumption here).

 

[Sugashane]

9 hours ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

This. Diggs isn't going anywhere.

I think of it like this. 

How good would the Bears have been with Lovie Smith if they had a talented offense? 

That what MIN can be.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

14 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

My order of preference: Stefon Diggs, Sheldon Richardson (making assumptions here that he is a great add), then Anthony Barr. I like Barr a lot and he certainly is going to be hard to replace, I prefer having two top notch WRs for Cousins and a high end 3 tech is invaluable (again making an assumption here).

 

For now, I'm surprised that you have Richardson rated as a higher priority given his recent history

[turtle28]

Vikings have two athletic freaks at DE! It’s just awesome ? 

[JDBrocks]

I'm having a very hard time understanding any negativity towards this deal. What is more valuable than a homegrown, well rounded, young, and still developing edge player? This is a discount in my opinion.