Jared Goff vs Carson Wentz

[Leader]

2 hours ago, JonStark said:

Literally made the face of your avatar after I read that. 

I hope it didnt stick.

[Flounch]

So the Eagles won a SB with a backup QB but they called Goff a system QB ? 

 

[Danger]

20 minutes ago, Flounch said:

So the Eagles won a SB with a backup QB but they called Goff a system QB ? 

 

To insinuate that either Carson or Goff are system QBs at this moment in time is ridiculous. 

[El Ramster]

31 minutes ago, Danger said:

To insinuate that either Carson or Goff are system QBs at this moment in time is ridiculous. 

And there wouldn’t be anything wrong with being a system qb if the team has/finds success. Sign me up.

 

[Calvert28]

30 minutes ago, Danger said:

To insinuate that either Carson or Goff are system QBs at this moment in time is ridiculous. 

No it isnt. Goff hasn't shown the ability to succeed with other teams and had success with a man who hand tailored the current offense in a matter of weeks to fit his strengths. Then presto! He became a SB MVP. There's an argument to be made. 

[Danger]

Just now, Calvert28 said:

No it isnt. Goff hasn't shown the ability to succeed with other teams and had success with a man who hand tailored the current offense in a matter of weeks to fit his strengths. Then presto! He became a SB MVP. There's an argument to be made. 

If a coach isn't fitting their scheme to fit their players strengths then they won't be a coach for long in the NFL. Incredibly few QBs can work in just about any system.

If you follow that argument you could say Drew Brees is a system QB. He was very pedestrian in San Diego way back, but he went to New Orleans and presto. If that's what it means to be a system QB, I have no issues with that, as @El ramster said.

[BAConrad]

6 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

No it isnt. Goff hasn't shown the ability to succeed with other teams and had success with a man who hand tailored the current offense in a matter of weeks to fit his strengths. Then presto! He became a SB MVP. There's an argument to be made. 

What was the point of this? To rip on Foles? Or say that hes a "system QB"?

Which, despite my hating that term, Foles could in fact be argued as that very thing: a system QB. Meaning that Foles isnt a quarterback who can win games with any consistency in spite of his coaching or teammates or situation. He doesn't take broken plays and turn negatives into huge gains or big plays (and neither does like 95% of the QBs in the league, which Ill get to). He is of course talented in his own ways, ie his aggressiveness, his downfield throwing, etc. But with an average/uninventive coach like say Jason Garrett, the offense would be fairly bad with Foles at the helm. But heres the thing: he was fortunate to play for a head coach who has a very unique mind in that its OPEN. So many coaches in football, on defense and offense, are stubborn and always want to employ THEIR system, occasionally tweaking it in minor ways but still a single-scheme specific approach. 

Pederson is basically the ideal coach for really any player on offense, because he will not only change his entire scheme (whether its his RBS or passing game) from week to week....He literally will use multiple kinds of offenses in one game varying on whos on the field. Sure, he gameplans with an offensive approach in mind and some scripted plays, but even then, he has an open door policy where literally anyone from Lane Johnson to Wentz to his QB coach can share some play ideas with him and he takes all that different knowledge and will apply it in games, deciding that moment what to use based on personnel/game flow/situational awareness. So when Foles had to step in, Doug and his staff went and watched every single NFL snap that hed taken at QB, and came up with several different strategies and game plans based around what Foles can and cannot do. And he took the 3 full regular season games in weeks 15-17 to see what worked and what didn't, what Foles was comfortable with and what he struggled with, which is why we literally saw Foles and our offense look better and better each passing week. 

And that's what brings me back from the rabbit hole.....Almost any other coach has shown a propensity to not do that and instead force their QB to learn HIS playbook and HIS scheme and HIS protections etc etc. Not Doug. Hes a polyamorous coach, in lamence terms. Which is why I believe him to be a better HEAD COACH than McVay, while believing that McVay is a superior offensive coordinator/offensive mind based off of his brilliant offensive scheme that he created on his own, which I dont think Dougie could do at that high of a level.

So really, any QB is a "system QB" if they cannot win,  play at , and produce at a high level regardless of what team theyre on. They arent able to just take over games by themselves and take what would be a sack and turn it into a 50 yard tuddie or a big run or what have you.

And there are only a few QBs IMO who CAN do the latter.....Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, pre injury Luck (and hopefully post injury Luck), Carson Wentz, and then I think DeShaun Watson will prove to be among these guys here after this season.

 

[jrry32]

2 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

So really, any QB is a "system QB" if they cannot win,  play at , and produce at a high level regardless of what team theyre on. They arent able to just take over games by themselves and take what would be a sack and turn it into a 50 yard tuddie or a big run or what have you.

And there are only a few QBs IMO who CAN do the latter.....Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, pre injury Luck (and hopefully post injury Luck), Carson Wentz, and then I think DeShaun Watson will prove to be among these guys here after this season.

 

I think you mistakenly included Tom Brady in the group of QBs who aren't system QBs. After all, he's the only pocket passer on your list. You seem to be confusing mobility for transcendence.

[BAConrad]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

I think you mistakenly included Tom Brady in the group of QBs who aren't system QBs. After all, he's the only pocket passer on your list. You seem to be confusing mobility for transcendence.

Or maybe its because traditional pocket passers are incredibly less common than " dual threat " QBs in today's game, thus the top QBs of this new "era" (the generation right after Rodgers/Smith/Ryan/Flacco era draft classes) are likely going to be more mobile QBs. Its just the way of the game changing. 

Or should I have made some snide comment about Goff and how Wentz is better, thus taking the bait you laid out with your stupid comment. 

Look at who the top pick in the draft was. Look at the year before, where Watson looks to be the best of that class and someone like Mahomes (though Im not that high on him) getting a lot of love from NFL fans. 

NFL QBs like your boy Goff, who are true pocket passers and dont move really well outside the pocket or can make extend plays, etc, are going to be more rare as time passes. Doesnt mean he cant be one of the best in the league (or someone else like him in that sense of a traditional mold). 

Sorry that you somehow still managed to be a salty little muff cabbage simply because I don't think Goff is better than Wentz, Wilson, or Watson. Poor you. 

 

[BAConrad]

Also, I left out Brees and Rivers on the list I described above on accident. So those two indeed belong on that list.

Fixed:

Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Luck, Wentz, Brees, Rivers, Watson are the QBs who, IMO, can be successful in basically any offense/situation. Their talent transcends that of their peers.

[El Ramster]

3 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

Also, I left out Brees and Rivers on the list I described above on accident. So those two indeed belong on that list.

Fixed:

Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Luck, Wentz, Brees, Rivers, Watson are the QBs who, IMO, can be successful in basically any offense/situation. Their talent transcends that of their peers.

I mean we’ve been hearing that since the Vick and Vince Young days. Having mobility but thru out history haven’t been needed.. You’ll take Cam over Brady-Manning? Never. The whole running QB thing seems to have become a taboo. A cerebral QB who can break down coverages and blitzes will always be the king. It’s been proven time and time again. 

 

 

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

Or maybe its because traditional pocket passers are incredibly less common than " dual threat " QBs in today's game, thus the top QBs of this new "era" (the generation right after Rodgers/Smith/Ryan/Flacco era draft classes) are likely going to be more mobile QBs. Its just the way of the game changing. 

Or should I have made some snide comment about Goff and how Wentz is better, thus taking the bait you laid out with your stupid comment. 

Look at who the top pick in the draft was. Look at the year before, where Watson looks to be the best of that class and someone like Mahomes (though Im not that high on him) getting a lot of love from NFL fans. 

NFL QBs like your boy Goff, who are true pocket passers and dont move really well outside the pocket or can make extend plays, etc, are going to be more rare as time passes. Doesnt mean he cant be one of the best in the league (or someone else like him in that sense of a traditional mold). 

Sorry that you somehow still managed to be a salty little muff cabbage simply because I don't think Goff is better than Wentz, Wilson, or Watson. Poor you. 

 

I thought it was humorous because you didn't name QBs like Drew Brees, Ben, Rivers, Matt Ryan, etc. while putting Wentz and Watson on the list. It read to me like you think mobility is what makes guys transcend schemes. That's not particularly believable to me. Wentz and Goff are too young for that sort of praise. Neither guy transcended anything as a rookie. Both guys were great as a sophomores. I don't think either guy has reached the level yet where they could work almost anywhere. Both guys have that potential. Whether they reach that potential or not will come down to their mental and skill development. 

Basically, you're putting too much stock in mobility. I know why people like to do that. They convince themselves that mobile QBs can more easily survive poor supporting casts. But the reality is that we've seen pocket passers for years make underwhelming OLs look good (see Peyton Manning).

You tell us that "dual threats" are taking over the NFL. However, just about every young QB is mobile. Guys lose mobility as their careers progress. Even Goff is mobile for now.

Anyways, you seem awfully upset that I criticized your list. But you can't be surprised when you put guys like Wentz and Watson on while omitting Drew freaking Brees.

[BAConrad]

8 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I thought it was humorous because you didn't name QBs like Drew Brees, Ben, Rivers, Matt Ryan, etc. while putting Wentz and Watson on the list. It read to me like you think mobility is what makes guys transcend schemes. That's not particularly believable to me. Wentz and Goff are too young for that sort of praise. Neither guy transcended anything as a rookie. Both guys were great as a sophomores. I don't think either guy has reached the level yet where they could work almost anywhere. Both guys have that potential. Whether they reach that potential or not will come down to their mental and skill development. 

Basically, you're putting too much stock in mobility. I know why people like to do that. They convince themselves that mobile QBs can more easily survive poor supporting casts. But the reality is that we've seen pocket passers for years make underwhelming OLs look good (see Peyton Manning).

You tell us that "dual threats" are taking over the NFL. However, just about every young QB is mobile. Guys lose mobility as their careers progress. Even Goff is mobile for now.

Anyways, you seem awfully upset that I criticized your list. But you can't be surprised when you put guys like Wentz and Watson on while omitting Drew freaking Brees.

Read my last post.

And I absolutely disagree about Goff being "mobile". I guess that its subjective though in the way we are discussing it.

 

[jrry32]

Just now, BAConrad said:

Read my last post.

And I absolutely disagree about Goff being "mobile". I guess that its subjective though in the way we are discussing it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaDlIUejEDc

 

[JiffyJag]

Barring his injury being a major setback in his future performance, give me Wentz no hesitation. Not even really a knock on Goff, I just think Wentz is a special player. 

 

Can't find the gif I'm looking for of his Rodgers-esque falling throw, but it's just unreal. Was crazy about him as a prospect and I think his 2nd season is hopefully a sign of things to come for a long time