Matts4313 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) From 2013: GRRM responded to this post: "This guy gets it" Edited May 13, 2019 by Matts4313 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavensTillIDie Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: From 2013: GRRM responded to this post: "This guy gets it" While that's a great explanation on paper, it sucks the show with it's condensed schedule couldn't have done a better job extenuating that point. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: From the very first episodes she and her brother talk about it. She has been willing to kill anyone in her way the entire time. She has shown a single mindedness to rule westeros the entire time. She has repeatedly stated she will use fire, death and fear to progress her agenda the entire time. She has literally had to be talked out of killing people the entire time. The only reason she didnt do all this earlier was people have talked her out of it. But she has craved mass killing the entire show and when given the impulse opportunity, has always killed. Key word there is "in her way." Every character seeking the throne has killed those in their way, Cersei, Rob Stark, Stanis, Dany, etc. That's playing the game. No character other than Joffrey, who the show developed and was clearly mad, has killed innocent people for the hell of it. None of those women and children were "in her way." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) An interesting perspective.......................... The decisiveness of Dany’s attack on King’s Landing would ignite a complex conversation about whether this was the right decision, but also more pressingly if it was a justified decision. And it is here where I think we need to separate out these two questions, because we’re dealing with two different issues. The first question speaks to the core ideas of the story development, which is about the corruptive nature of power. And on this question, I will go on the record as saying that the choice to have Daenerys burn down King’s Landing is a logical and to my mind effective way of ending this story on a thematic level. The way it reshapes the rest of the episode is a striking reframing of the violence that has defined the show, but this time with the knowledge that Jon—often our point of view on the horrors of war—is on the side committing that violence. Once the Lannisters lay down their weapons and give up the city, everything after that is a war crime, and Jon, Davos, Tyrion, and we as the audience are faced with that violence in a new light. After Miguel Sapochnik’s work on "The Long Night" hid the carnage of the army of the dead in the shadow of night, he shoots the horrors of Dany’s attack on the city in the light of day, and Arya’s staggering trip through King’s Landing leaves no question about how many innocent people were killed in the name of a queen’s vengeance. The second question speaks to this as a character development, and here is where things get undeniably trickier. I think it would be a mistake to say that Dany’s actions are unjustified. Varys’ suggestion that every Targaryen is a coin flip makes it easy to be led to think the show itself flipped a coin and turned Dany in the process, but I would argue the show is not claiming she simply went mad like her father.* Her entire character arc has been defined by her struggle to learn how to lead a continent she’s never set foot on, and the past two seasons have shown just how much her messy experiences across the Narrow Sea failed to fully prepare her for what would happen upon her arrival in Westeros. Her actions are an immediate reaction to Missandei’s death, but they’re also fueled by her realization that all the work she put into learning how to rule is being steadfastly ignored in favor of a man who doesn’t even want to sit on the Iron Throne. It wasn’t that she was destined to commit these atrocities because she was a Targaryen: Being a Targaryen and having her dragons gave her the capacity to do so, but her choice is a response to a collection of life experiences that left her believing that ruling with fear was the only path ahead of her. Add on edit: What I will say is that while I didn’t have an intense subjective response to Daenerys’ heel turn, I do think that the writers failed to create the necessary structure for it to play out as they imagined. It works in the context of the episode, setting a harrowing backdrop for the remaining drama and although it may place me in the minority, I’m ultimately glad that they chose this path, story-wise. But in the context of a rushed final two seasons, and a Daenerys story arc that was always at odds with the rest of the show due to its isolation and its erratic pacing, it’s hard for me to get a firm grasp on the character’s journey as demonstrated by the show. There were pieces of the puzzle they could have latched onto here—like her prophecy in Qarth, echoed by Cersei’s later in the series—but chose not to, leaving this to be read as an immediate reaction as opposed to a cumulative story development. The fact that Daenerys Targaryen committed these acts does not betray the arc of her character, but it is the kind of development that requires nuance that the ensemble spectacle of the series just might not be built for, and which the show certainly never achieved. Emilia Clarke sells it as much as she could while riding a CGI dragon, but I don’t know if there was anything the television show that Game Of Thrones chose to be could have done to pull off this story development in a way that lived up to its full thematic potential. Edited May 13, 2019 by Leader 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: Key word there is "in her way." Every character seeking the throne has killed those in their way, Cersei, Rob Stark, Stanis, Dany, etc. That's playing the game. No character other than Joffrey, who the show developed and was clearly mad, has killed innocent people for the hell of it. None of those women and children were "in her way." She clearly explained that she viewed them as in her way. That this generation needs to die so that she can lead the next one. Add that to a clearly distraught and emotionally unstable person and it all lines up logically. Edited May 13, 2019 by Matts4313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, RavensTillIDie said: While that's a great explanation on paper, it sucks the show with it's condensed schedule couldn't have done a better job extenuating that point. 4 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: Key word there is "in her way." Every character seeking the throne has killed those in their way, Cersei, Rob Stark, Stanis, Dany, etc. That's playing the game. No character other than Joffrey, who the show developed and was clearly mad, has killed innocent people for the hell of it. None of those women and children were "in her way." Agreed on both. Whether you think killing enemies on the battlefield is different in kind from what she did to King's Landing, I think you have to feel that this was a sudden and shocking escalation, even with her losing Jorah and Missandei. If, for instance, she'd only burned the castle and the Lannister army, and a lot of innocent people died in the process, that would be believable, because it's not just gratuitous violence against innocent peasants. If, after the field of fire, she'd had all the soldiers burned, instead of just the two Tarlys, it'd be more believable, because there'd be a bigger indication that she would be more ruthless than we'd seen in the past. But the way it was done this episode? Nah. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnygsm Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Again, I don't think it's her ending that is the issue. It's that the execution was compromised by the condensed schedule. Out of all the episodes, this felt like the most concrete one in terms of what GRRM has planned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: She clearly explained that she viewed them as in her way. That this generation needs to die so that she can lead the next one. Add that to a clearly distraught and emotionally unstable person and it all lines up logically. The words say one thing and the actions show another. The action always trumps the words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrILL! Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 9 hours ago, oldman9er said: Great scene with Tyrion and Jamie. Jamie always loved Cersei, and was probably coming back to kill/stop her.. and ultimately didn't feel he deserved anything but death, after all the wicked he had done. It was nice for the 2 of the but it was just another example of Tyrion messing up thinking there was any chance in hell of convincing Cersei otherwise. The scene where Jamie stood before Jon and Dany at Winterfell should’ve been the last time we saw any shred of hope for that extinguished. And even before then he should’ve known better. As far as Jamie, I never thought he was going back to kill Cersei. The reason he left Brienne was bcuz he was in love with another woman and you could see it in his face and hear it in his words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrILL! Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 7 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: If you think Dany's arc was sudden at all, you haven't been paying attention. Every major decision point and obstacle for her character was Fire and Blood from the beginning of the show. The scene at Dragonstone before the battle where they showed her face up close and you could see she had been crying, she looked just like her brother. That had to be intentional and yet another cue to what was coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrILL! Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 6 hours ago, flyers0909 said: Was she supposed to be fighting dragon fire and falling buildings? Perhaps you missed the fighting on the ground where everyone was being slaughtered? She could’ve been attacked by either side at the point. At least have your sword out to defend yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hail Mary Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Matts4313 said: From 2013: GRRM responded to this post: "This guy gets it" Damn, nice post/find. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrILL! Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Not saying I agree with their decisions but it feels like the majority of ppl in here didn’t watch the Inside The Episode afterward. D&D broke down all of their decisions including why Jamie returned, how Dany was staring at the Red Keep which her father had built, how Arya was our POV in the chaos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrILL! Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 hours ago, sammymvpknight said: I also wish that Jamie would have mercy killed Cersei. The problem is that mercy killing may not be culturally consistent, but it would have fulfilled the book prophecy that has many book readers frustrated today. The way she went died was the best case scenario for her- with the man she loves. Dying together just like they came into the world together. And it’s exactly what Jamie always wanted with her in his arms as he verbalized earlier in the series. She didn’t deserve to gout like that after all she had done but that’s a far better ending for her than Jamie killing her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyers0909 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 13 minutes ago, thrILL! said: Perhaps you missed the fighting on the ground where everyone was being slaughtered? She could’ve been attacked by either side at the point. At least have your sword out to defend yourself. The immediate threat to her was falling buildings and the fire breathing dragon destroying everything in its path. The only time she looked to be in any real danger from anyone on the ground was when the 4-5 Dothraki were behind her but even then I fail to see how running for her life not to get crushed/burned to death was her forgetting her training. In all the chaos her best bet was to just book it and she barely even made it out alive then. Her staying to fight would have gotten her killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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