GDT Week 4: KC @ DEN

[jsthomp2007]

At least the Broncos seemed competitive?  However, clearly, the Broncos need a top tier QB and a veteran coach.  I mean all of the years that we've really kind of dominated the West....we've had the best QBs...Elway/Manning.  I mean over the years the Chief, Chargers, and Raiders have not had the best QBs...till now that the Chiefs have Mahomes.  I can only think of a few top tier QBs our competition have had...Rich Gannon??  This is why we have been to several Super Bowls.  Plus, we have had better than average coaching...including Fox, but he was given every bit of talent to work with...it took Kubiak to get the talent over the hump.  

If the Broncos want to win again...they should come to the realization that they should at least see what they have in Kelly, before next season when they need to invest a draft pick on a QB...after all, we are going to pick rather high, so we should get a top tier QB prospect...IF!!  Kelly is not the answer.  The true answer is that for the remaining season and next season we will have an overpaid, elite, backup QB...would love to see Kelly work, and/or, get a top QB prospect in the draft, and would love to see Keenum stick around even after his contract.  He is a great, great, great, backup...he can win a few games in a pinch.  He seems like a team guy, and a locker room guy, but he needs to realize what he is...and he got paid...he should be happy to hold the clipboard for the Broncos for awhile...he could play another 10-years and have a good life that way. 

[BullsandBroncos]

17 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I am with you 100% on this. 

That said, is there really any way they bail on Keenum after less than a full season, barring injury? I don't know, maybe if we go a skid and Vance gets canned and it's another entirely lost season but, and I said it when he we signed, I can't see them bailing on Case before the end of the year. You don't pay a guy $18m to pull him after less than a full season so long as he is healthy. 

In most cases, I'd agree. But I'd say that if he hasn't put it together in at least 1 of the 4 games he's played, he won't. Not this "experienced" of a QB.

[Joe_is_the_best]

26 minutes ago, BullsandBroncos said:

In most cases, I'd agree. But I'd say that if he hasn't put it together in at least 1 of the 4 games he's played, he won't. Not this "experienced" of a QB.

I wouldn't put it past Elway to just accept Keenum as a sunk cost. The way Elway drafted this year was as if the last draft never happened. I mean look at Mike Glennon. He signed a $45 million contract and only played 4 games. It's not quite the same situation (Kelly is Mr. Irrelevant and Trubisky was a top-3 pick) but you get the point. Will Elway cut ties before we're eliminated? Probably not, but a dumpster fire game from Keenum could force his hand.

[bMiller031]

A few things: 

 

1. Why did Von Miller sit for 32% of the defensive snaps? Von played fewer snaps than Todd Davis, Brandon Marshall, Adam Jones, and Bradley Chubb? 

Snap counts: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201810010den.htm 

2. What are our legitimate prospects for QB in 2019? Herbert is (probably) going to get drafted too soon and Kelly is a flyer (at best). Even if we're able to get out from under Keenum's contract (huge if), who are some candidates to be brought in? Bridgewater? Tannehill? Foles? oof.

3. (I know it's the cardinal sin to speak of this- and he's my favorite Bronco by a mile) But how tradeable is Von's contract? If we're not contending for a Super Bowl (or the division...) in either of the next two seasons, why wouldn't we at least consider how to get the most value out of our assets. It is hard to imagine Von continuing to play at this level into our next era of contention (2020 at the earliest)-- maybe a team contending between now and then could better use his services. But then again - would teams line up to pay his bill?

[AKRNA]

9 minutes ago, bMiller031 said:

A few things: 

 

1. Why did Von Miller sit for 32% of the defensive snaps? Von played fewer snaps than Todd Davis, Brandon Marshall, Adam Jones, and Bradley Chubb? 

Snap counts: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201810010den.htm 

2. What are our legitimate prospects for QB in 2019? Herbert is (probably) going to get drafted too soon and Kelly is a flyer (at best). Even if we're able to get out from under Keenum's contract (huge if), who are some candidates to be brought in? Bridgewater? Tannehill? Foles? oof.

3. (I know it's the cardinal sin to speak of this- and he's my favorite Bronco by a mile) But how tradeable is Von's contract? If we're not contending for a Super Bowl (or the division...) in either of the next two seasons, why wouldn't we at least consider how to get the most value out of our assets. It is hard to imagine Von continuing to play at this level into our next era of contention (2020 at the earliest)-- maybe a team contending between now and then could better use his services. But then again - would teams line up to pay his bill?

It doesn't seem likely to me. We really backloaded his contract. He only counts $10 mill this season against the cap but in 2019/2020 it jumps to $25. We'll be in cap hell for a quite a while it would appear.

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, bMiller031 said:

A few things: 

 

1. Why did Von Miller sit for 32% of the defensive snaps? Von played fewer snaps than Todd Davis, Brandon Marshall, Adam Jones, and Bradley Chubb? 

Snap counts: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201810010den.htm 

2. What are our legitimate prospects for QB in 2019? Herbert is (probably) going to get drafted too soon and Kelly is a flyer (at best). Even if we're able to get out from under Keenum's contract (huge if), who are some candidates to be brought in? Bridgewater? Tannehill? Foles? oof.

3. (I know it's the cardinal sin to speak of this- and he's my favorite Bronco by a mile) But how tradeable is Von's contract? If we're not contending for a Super Bowl (or the division...) in either of the next two seasons, why wouldn't we at least consider how to get the most value out of our assets. It is hard to imagine Von continuing to play at this level into our next era of contention (2020 at the earliest)-- maybe a team contending between now and then could better use his services. But then again - would teams line up to pay his bill?

 

1 hour ago, AKRNA said:

It doesn't seem likely to me. We really backloaded his contract. He only counts $10 mill this season against the cap but in 2019/2020 it jumps to $25. We'll be in cap hell for a quite a while it would appear.

Elway's restructure this year makes Von pretty much untradeable next year. We'd be adding 3M more to his 25M cap hit next year.  Near 12M of the the 2020 25M hit is fully guaranteed.  It's why Elway never kicked the can down the road with a restructure in the 2013-15 contention years.    It just creates major cap hell down the road.  SMH.

[champ11]

I think Von was like 3 snaps under his typical snap count. He has 1-2 sacks last night against a human QB 

 

 

[germ-x]

I didn’t notice Vons snap count, this franchise has been rotating DL rather heavily dating back to the SB win.

Denver’s defense gave the Chiefs one hell of a run.  Even with the score, they played exceptionally.  There may be some calls/plays here and there that can be questioned, but as a fan I couldn’t have hoped for much more.  The run D wasn’t great, but the team was selling out to stop the explosive passing game, which was the correct game plan.  

That is a completely ridiculous offense.  Weapons everywhere and a solid OL.  You’re never going to completely shut everything down. 

What happened was we saw a great player go off in the spotlight.  Denver did everything they could to throw Mahomes off in the 4th quarter.  Mahomes single handily won that game, it’s what great players are capable of doing.  It sucks he’s with the Chiefs, but that was a player taking over a game in a way I haven’t seen in a long time in the NFL.  It happens in all of sports and there are just times you throw everything you can at a player and still just lose.  It’s what happened to Denver Monday night.

What sucks most is I think that would’ve been such a huge momentum win for this team.

[Broncofan]

26 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I think Von was like 3 snaps under his typical snap count. He has 1-2 sacks last night against a human QB 

 

 

I think in altitude, with all the running he had to do to chase Mahomes, plus in coverage (!!), 49 snaps is about right.  I'd hope for mid 50's on the road.   I don't have a problem with it.  As you said, he gets at least 1, if not 2 sacks vs. anyone not named Mahomes, Wilson or ARod there.   And he was nails in run D again, huge stop at the GL vs. KHunt that saved the TD and kept it to a FG.   

D was awesome for 52 mins facing the #1 O heading into this week.   No question.  The playcalls on O that gassed the D (along with Keenum's complete lack of execution), and the 3rd and 20 I'll still SMH at, but man, I have zero qualms with the effort the D put out there.

[BroncosFan2010]

Ya, with Case sucking its hard to not look towards next draft / FA and review the options.

In the draft, we wont be bad enough to realistically get Herbert. We would have to trade an enormous package to snag him. If Elway was wary to simply take a QB at 1.05, he will be terrified to take one after surrendering a ton of draft assets. I am not that high on Drew Lock, I see him as a Mason Rudolph caliber talent. It may be the homer in me but Montez looks legit, probably a R2 guy at this point, but I would love to roll into 2019 w/ Kelly and Montez battling for QB1.

The FA crop is just putrid. Teddy is probably the best guy but IMO New Orleans has him as the 'heir apparent' and will do whatever is reasonabe to keep him.

This team w/ Teddy could be undefeated right now IMO. Not guaranteed, but far more likely. We signed the wrong MIN QB. And to think Teddy would have costed peanuts.

I dont think you can make any reasonable argument against Case being Elway's worst decision. Using a low R1 on a bust QB, who had great measurables and a high ceiling, is a decision that makes way more sense than giving a career backup 18M, for basically two seasons guaranteed. SMH.

[big_palooka]

14 hours ago, bMiller031 said:

2. What are our legitimate prospects for QB in 2019? 

Will Grier from West VA is a good looking prospect. If I'm Denver, I trade up for Herbert. I think he's got a chance to be special. 

Plus side, not a lot of QB needed teams right now. Outside the Giants, whom else will be in the top 10 picks needing a QB? 

[Broncofan]

14 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Will Grier from West VA is a good looking prospect. If I'm Denver, I trade up for Herbert. I think he's got a chance to be special. 

Plus side, not a lot of QB needed teams right now. Outside the Giants, whom else will be in the top 10 picks needing a QB? 

Will Grier will be 24 at Draft Day, who only encountered success in his age 22 year.   Those are huge flags against franchise-level success.  They don't make him Brandon Weeden, but college QB's who take that long to be successful are literally nonexistent in becoming franchise players.   Add in the flaws in his game, this is exactly the kind of problem we're seeing with almost all the QB's in 2019.  They are all so flawed compared to the top 3-4 guys of the 2018 class.   

As for who will be picking inside the top 10 - NYG will be, and let's face it, while it would be a massive mistake, Gruden's own words and the 7.5M cap hit for Carr, well, Gruden's known to go after "his guys" more than stick with guys from the past.    NYG is a lock, but OAK is an obvious possibility.  It would be a mistake IMO, esp. given how bad the top end talent of this draft class is, but it's not like it hasn't happened before.   The bigger issue is that right now, there's probably only 1 guy who's even worth top 10 discussion, and very iffy if anyone else is even worth Rd1 discussion on talent (and need would drive up a terrible overpay).  That's pretty awful for a QB draft class.

Herbert is going to require a mint to acquire from where we are likely drafting at, as we aren't likely to be in the top 10.    If Elway was hesitant to use 1.5 on a much better QB, it's hard to see him suddenly think this is a good idea.   And the sad part is - Herbert isn't even as sure of a thing as the top 3 guys from last year were.  And Elway thought we should pass on 1 of those 3...for Case Keenum.  SMH too  x 1000.

 

 

[big_palooka]

7 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Will Grier will be 24 at Draft Day, who only encountered success in his age 22 year.   Those are huge flags against franchise-level success.  They don't make him Brandon Weeden, but college QB's who take that long to be successful are literally nonexistent in becoming franchise players.   Add in the flaws in his game, this is exactly the kind of problem we're seeing with almost all the QB's in 2019.  They are all so flawed compared to the top 3-4 guys of the 2018 class.   

As for who will be picking inside the top 10 - NYG will be, and let's face it, while it would be a massive mistake, Gruden's own words and the 7.5M cap hit for Carr, well, Gruden's known to go after "his guys" more than stick with guys from the past.    NYG is a lock, but OAK is an obvious possibility.  It would be a mistake IMO, esp. given how bad the top end talent of this draft class is, but it's not like it hasn't happened before.   The bigger issue is that right now, there's probably only 1 guy who's even worth top 10 discussion, and very iffy if anyone else is even worth Rd1 discussion on talent (and need would drive up a terrible overpay).  That's pretty awful for a QB draft class.

Herbert is going to require a mint to acquire from where we are likely drafting at, as we aren't likely to be in the top 10.    If Elway was hesitant to use 1.5 on a much better QB, it's hard to see him suddenly think this is a good idea.   And the sad part is - Herbert isn't even as sure of a thing as the top 3 guys from last year were.  And Elway thought we should pass on 1 of those 3...for Case Keenum.  SMH too  x 1000.

 

 

I can't see Gruden getting antsy with Carr, but you never know. He's looked good with some bad decisions mixed in and he is still learning a complex offense. Unless it all just falls apart for him, I don't see Gruden getting the itch. 

I agree on Grier for the most part. He's a late 1 to 2 right now. But will get elevated in a bad class. Broncos really messed up not taking a QB in the 2018 class, because 2019 is pretty underwhelming thus far.

I have the Broncos picking top 10 personally. They are a dropped pass by a FB away from being 1-3 right now. I see 5-6 wins left on their scheduled right now. Vance Jospeh and staff are trash, it won't come together for them. 7-9 feels about right. 

So you're likely right. They'd have to jump the Giants to land Herbert. Tall order. As for Elway.... he's washed. Fell backwards into a Superbowl with Manning and has fumbled everything else. I could see him finally just getting desperate enough to go all out for a QB after failing miserably for his tenure. One last nail in the coffin if you will

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

As for Elway.... he's washed. Fell backwards into a Superbowl with Manning and has fumbled everything else. I could see him finally just getting desperate enough to go all out for a QB after failing miserably for his tenure. One last nail in the coffin if you will

lol. This is not at all true. He has made his fair share of mistakes, and the QB issues may get him fired, but his early years (FA & draft) were phenominal.

Not having a QB changed the course of this franchise, and will really hurt the perception of Elway moving forward but he did plenty of good here. He may not be a concensus top 5 GM like many crowned him early on, but until the Case signing I would still have him around 10-12. That signing single handedly dropped him in my mind to a middle-of-the-pack GM. So lets say around 16th best.

But he isnt trash by any means. The 2018 draft is a hopeful sign that he is returning to BPA. If he pushes the coaching staff to rightfully start Kelly, a concession that this team is rebuilding, then he will rise again in my GM rankings.

I dont expect you to agree, your a palooka, but its the truth.

[champ11]

44 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

So you're likely right. They'd have to jump the Giants to land Herbert. Tall order. As for Elway.... he's washed. Fell backwards into a Superbowl with Manning and has fumbled everything else. I could see him finally just getting desperate enough to go all out for a QB after failing miserably for his tenure. One last nail in the coffin if you will

It was so dope when Manning was the best player on that super bowl team. Thank you for the Super Bowl Peyton